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Old September 14th, 2017, 12:15 PM   #11

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The Iliad is also written as a tall tale; Achilles running around Troy, having the amazing shield etc. He is an ancient violent Paul Bunyanesque figure. So, there is much that might be based in historical fact, and then there could have been a lot that was added to spice things up. Clearly the Trojan Horse in the Mykonos Vase is a siege engine; there are warriors all around it, ready to use it to attack the walls; there is no attempt at concealment. I suspect it is older than the date given it:

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Old September 14th, 2017, 12:17 PM   #12
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So Theseus kidnapped Helen and kept her in Athens, and then the Greeks somehow had her going to Athens again but this time called it by a different name? I know the timelines are a bit screwy given that it is mythology, but given that Theseus is somehow associated with the foundation of Athens, it suggests that the Greeks were conscious about Athens and Troy being totally different.

Plus one of the Kings of Athens participated in the war. Sent some ships too. So Athens sent ships to attack itself? And why bother with the rigmarole of a thousand ships? Why "cross" the Aegean, which involves human sacrifice to placate the seas allowing for the crossing, if it was a Peninsular civil war? Why not just march around all that land? If the "Trojan" war was basically a rehash of the Peloponnesian war as you seem to suggest, why bother with massive fleets and ships at all? How do you explain the various Trojan Allies in Anatolia? If the Dorians have the massive fleet, how exactly does Athens hold out for 10 years? No Army, no Fleet, allies across the Aegean - This hardly seems like an epic war - more like a two day conflict.
The name Athens is related to the Gk word 'Astu meaning Town, the word Town itself, from Celtic *dunon (Hill-fort) PIE *dhu-no and possibly cognate with the name 'Athens so if the name means 'Town then it could have being any Town.

Ashdod in Israel also derive from the Greek 'Astu

Ἀτθίς ( Atthis)
ἀτθίδος ( Atthidos)
Ασεδωθ (Ashedoth)
ἄστυ ( Astu )
Γάζῃ (`Azzah) ἁκτή ' seashore ' or dialectic form of ἄστυ
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Old September 14th, 2017, 01:22 PM   #13
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If "Troy" represents a vast territory with multiple urban centers, instead of a single city - doesn't that sort of render the entire Iliad obsolete? As I understand it, the author(s) of the Iliad do have an understanding that Troy is a city, and there are other entities at play. Dardania for one is mentioned. Other regions with settlements are also mentioned. That suggests that when the authors say Troy is a city rather than a region of cities, they know what they're talking about.

If the Iliad is infact rendered obsolete, in that its depiction of Troy as a single city is flawed, then wouldn't that render this whole excercise of a "real" Troy moot? Sort of like a circle of refutation? How can there be a real "Troy" if the source of our knowledge of said entity is itself flawed?
I don't think that this guy is saying that the 'real Troy' was just the Trojan territory from Hissarlik to Ezine, but that, while Hissarlik was part of Trojan territory, the actual city was where Ezine is now. That's what I gather from: "the main Trojan territory was behind the defensive line of hills and was vastly bigger with the modern town of Ezine its capital – the real Troy." So I don't think he's saying that the 'Troy' of the story was not a city. I think he's saying that Ezine was 'the real Troy'.
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Old September 14th, 2017, 01:23 PM   #14
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Yeah, have to agree with that. This new theory bears no relation to any descriptions we have. There has been a suggestion that Troy was actually a different site down the coast from Hissarlik, apparently still fitting enough of the descriptions to be feasible plus being larger overall.
Could you give me some more information about that please?
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Old September 14th, 2017, 01:31 PM   #15
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Just noticed this on Wikipedia:

"In the late 18th century, Jean Baptiste LeChevalier had identified a location near the village of Pınarbaşı, Ezine as the site of Troy, a mound approximately 5 km south of the currently accepted location. LeChavalier's location, published in his Voyage de la Troade, was the most commonly accepted theory for almost a century.[18]"

So that's interesting. I wonder why Hissarlik came to be considered the superior option.
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Old September 14th, 2017, 01:45 PM   #16

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It strike me that Troy must have a territory supplying it with food ,
the larger the City ,the larger the extend of producing hinterland .

Certainly grain could be traded from afar but all sources mention Ilium as NOT being a port , considering the prohibitive cost of land transport , this would imply a territorial control of some extend ,the larger the city the larger the extend .
in old days the quantity of food which could be levied from a farm was around 10~15% of the food produced
the larger the City , the larger the hinterland , a population of 5000 would suggest a farming zone of 50.000 with villages and possibly smaller towns

Maybe some of that was neighbors territory , but the city rulers would have been keen to control their lifeline
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Old September 14th, 2017, 01:51 PM   #17

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Makes sense in light of the fact that archeologists have always been disappointed by the small size of Hisarlik.
Manfred Korfman's work, though contentious, does indicate a much larger size for the city than previously thought.
His estimate is that the site was up to fifteen times larger than the current ruins which are, according to him, just the citadel of the greater walled settlement.

Not sure I buy that myself but it warrants further research IMO.
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Old September 14th, 2017, 02:06 PM   #18

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Manfred Korfman's work, though contentious, does indicate a much larger size for the city than previously thought.
His estimate is that the site was up to fifteen times larger than the current ruins which are, according to him, just the citadel of the greater walled settlement.

Not sure I buy that myself but it warrants further research IMO.
That is my understanding also- far from loking for another Troy, the claim is that a feasible Troy is already foud and excavated.
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Old September 14th, 2017, 02:17 PM   #19

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Troy wasn't that big, even considering the lower city:

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Old September 14th, 2017, 02:24 PM   #20

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Pergamum is another spot where Troy has been placed:
The Troy Deception - Ancient Mysteries & Alternative History - Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums
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