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Old October 11th, 2017, 08:16 AM   #11

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Ancient Obelisk Fragment Uncovered in Egypt Is Largest Ever

For the Egyptologists out there. How rare are Old Kingdom Obelisks?
As only an amateur I can only suggest, not say for certain, that until the discovery you link to, the number of extant OK obelisks was zero. It is known that the obelisk, tekhen, did exist in the old kingdom as there is a record of a pair being transported from upper Egypt for Pepi I, so I wonder if this new discovery is one of those and subsequently appropriated by Queen Ankhnespepy II, or a third one made specifically for her. The closest to an actual oblelisk from that period is a miniature one found at Giza in the tomb of an official named Ihy. Otherwise, before this discovery the oldest extant obelisk is the one [part of a pair originally] at Heliopolis set up for Ra-Horakhty by Senwosret I during the middle kingdom.

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Old October 11th, 2017, 08:28 AM   #12

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I will repeat what I said in the other thread about snipes and snide remarks. So long as you want this thread to remain open, you'll keep that in mind Stick to the topic of discussion..
If you see a post that is of crank nature please do not attack the individual but logically refute the idea(s) presented. If I see a problem with posts I will report the issue for administrative action as required.

Thread discipline will keep the experience interesting, fun, and educational.

Lets keep Ma'at happy.
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Old October 11th, 2017, 08:36 AM   #13

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As only an amateur I can only suggest, not say for certain, that until the discovery you link to, the number of extant OK obelisks was zero. It is known that the obelisk, tekhen, did exist in the old kingdom as there is a record of a pair being transported from upper Egypt for Pepi I, so I wonder if this new discovery is one of those and subsequently appropriated by Queen Ankhnespepy II, or a third one made specifically for her. The closest to an actual oblelisk from that period is a miniature one found at Giza in the tomb of an official named Ihy. Otherwise, before this discovery, the oldest extant obelisk is the one [part of a pair originally] at Heliopolis set up for Ra-Horakhty by Senwosret I during the middle kingdom.
It seems they liked to pass the things around. This seems to be a new thing in the late Old Kingdom. Maybe an offshoot from the Solar Temple era? Maybe a focal point in the mortuary temples of the pyramid complexes of this period? I may be speculating but it looks like a matching cultural behavior.
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Old October 11th, 2017, 08:47 AM   #14
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It seems they liked to pass the things around. This seems to be a new thing in the late Old Kingdom. Maybe an offshoot from the Solar Temple era? Maybe a focal point in the mortuary temples of the pyramid complexes of this period? I may be speculating but it looks like a matching cultural behavior.
Yes, the prominence of the Heliopolitan solar cult began with Sneferu during the first dynasty. His decision to promote Heliopolitan theology at the expense of the local cult of Ptah was likely motivated, at least partially, by political considerations. There is still a big question mark surrounding Sneferu's parentage. He was likely not the son of his predecessor Huni, but rather he married into the family. But this cannot be proven through the currently extant evidence, we can only provide educated conjecture here. Nevertheless, it is plausible, and is a hypothesis supported by Dr. Lehner. If this is true, than there may have been lateral branches of the royal family who felt they had a better claim to the throne. By diminishing the power of the old Memphite elite, Sneferu increased his own power and ensured the smooth succession of his own blood line to the throne.

Note also, that Sneferu enacted a major land reform early in his reign. Before Sneferu, the local nomarchs, though still appointed by the king, were appointed from among the provincial nobility. Sneferu changed this tradition, and established the precedent of appointing nomarchs from among his own family members and court officials. The Fourth Dynasty was highly centralized, and the king's power increased to a previously unprecedented level. And in fact, I would argue that royal power was at its absolute height during the Fourth Dynasty.

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Old October 11th, 2017, 09:13 AM   #15
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No this is not. This deals more with latest finds and general points of AE interest. We have an actual Egyptologist and seriously interested individuals who like all things AE. From the ethical treatment of mummies to the Scan Pyramids project. Current news articles of what is going on with Egyptology, excavations, and related items are posted for reading or discussion.

No spam crank garbage is welcome here.
Ah im sorry then
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Old October 11th, 2017, 09:23 AM   #16

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It seems they liked to pass the things around. This seems to be a new thing in the late Old Kingdom. Maybe an offshoot from the Solar Temple era? Maybe a focal point in the mortuary temples of the pyramid complexes of this period? I may be speculating but it looks like a matching cultural behavior.
Tentatively, it could be suggested that while each pair of obelisks, while being dedicated to a particular god and for a particular event connected with the pharaoh, the obelisks may have also been not just obelisks in their own right, but also a representation of the solar temple at Heliopolis as a form of continuity, and that they were always carved from a single block signifies a permanence through time. It is almost like a magic totem pole used to link pharaoh to obelisk and obelisk to the gods, and linking all together from Heliopolis to each obelisk wherever it is. That is of course idle speculation.

However, part of my idea for that comes from what seems to be an alignment from Giza to Heliopolis, and the rising and the setting of the Sun. Hatshepsut's mortuary temple is aligned with her temple at Karnak, where, when both obelisks used to exist, the Sun would rise between the two obelisks and be aligned with her mortuary temple. This appears to mirror the situation at Giza and Heliopolis, so a bond, in a way, between the OK and NK despite the gap in time and various gods coming and going in the meantime.

However, the obelisks of Ramesses II would have marked not the rising and setting of the Sun as seen from looking out from the front of the temple, but from the rear of the temple, so an observer standing at the front of the temple would see it framed in the rays of the sun from behind. I'm not sure about the ritual aspects of having it like that, without the rays of the rising Sun entering the temple, but I guess they knew what they wanted.
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Old October 11th, 2017, 09:53 AM   #17

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However, the obelisks of Ramesses II would have marked not the rising and setting of the Sun as seen from looking out from the front of the temple, but from the rear of the temple, so an observer standing at the front of the temple would see it framed in the rays of the sun from behind. I'm not sure about the ritual aspects of having it like that, without the rays of the rising Sun entering the temple, but I guess they knew what they wanted.
I think Harry would know more about this.
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Old October 11th, 2017, 10:00 AM   #18

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Yes, the prominence of the Heliopolitan solar cult began with Sneferu during the first dynasty. His decision to promote Heliopolitan theology at the expense of the local cult of Ptah was likely motivated, at least partially, by political considerations. There is still a big question mark surrounding Sneferu's parentage. He was likely not the son of his predecessor Huni, but rather he married into the family. But this cannot be proven through the currently extant evidence, we can only provide educated conjecture here. Nevertheless, it is plausible, and is a hypothesis supported by Dr. Lehner. If this is true, than there may have been lateral branches of the royal family who felt they had a better claim to the throne. By diminishing the power of the old Memphite elite, Sneferu increased his own power and ensured the smooth succession of his own blood line to the throne.

Note also, that Sneferu enacted a major land reform early in his reign. Before Sneferu, the local nomarchs, though still appointed by the king, were appointed from among the provincial nobility. Sneferu changed this tradition, and established the precedent of appointing nomarchs from among his own family members and court officials. The Fourth Dynasty was highly centralized, and the king's power increased to a previously unprecedented level. And in fact, I would argue that royal power was at its absolute height during the Fourth Dynasty.
I do not see much on granite obelisks showing up until the later portion of the Old Kingdom. Am I wrong on that?
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Old October 11th, 2017, 10:28 AM   #19

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Tutankhamun's second bed transferred to new Grand Egyptian Museum in Giza - Heritage - Ahram Online
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Old October 11th, 2017, 10:35 AM   #20

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New Book Alert

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For more than 4,000 years the pyramids of Giza have stood like giant question marks that have intrigued and endlessly fascinated people. Who exactly built them? When? Why? And how did they create these colossal structures? But the pyramids are not a complete mystery - the stones, the hieroglyphs, the landscape and even the layers of sand and debris hold stories for us to read. Mark Lehner and Zahi Hawass, with over four decades of involvement with Giza, provide their unique and personal insight into the site, bringing together all the information and evidence to create a record unparalleled in its detail and scope. The celebrated Great Pyramid of Khufu, or Cheops, is the only one of the seven wonders of the ancient world still standing, but there is much more to Giza. We may think of the pyramids as rising from the desert, isolated and enigmatic, yet they were surrounded by temples, tombs, vast cemeteries and even teeming towns of the living. All are described in detail here and brought back to life, with hundreds of illustrations including detailed photographs of the monuments, excavations and objects, as well as plans, reconstructions and the latest images from remote-controlled cameras and laser scans. Through the ages, Giza and the pyramids have inspired the most extraordinary speculations and wild theories, but here, finally, in this prestigious publication, is the full story as told by the evidence on the ground, by the leading authorities on the site.
I already ordered one from Amazon.
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