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Old October 11th, 2017, 01:22 PM   #31

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What about entering the field of the royal names? It's an interesting field of research [still well alive].

Pharaohs had identified by two of their names [which were not a few ... at least 5]: the "Son of Ra" name, the birth name, and the "Lord of the Two Lands" name [also known in Egyptology, not in KmT, as "throne name"].

Now ... if we look at the cartouches containing the names of a Pharaoh [or a King, since the term "Pharaoh" is later as for application to the royal person, in the beginning it indicated the Royal Palace, then the function and finally, around the beginning of the New Kingdom, the Monarch] we can note something really common ...

Click the image to open in full size.

The bee [and it's quite curious to note that in Ancient Egypt they called it "bjt" ... with a root which sounded like the English "bee" ...]; the duck, the sun ...

What about this?

Above a cartouche in the right section there is a set of symbols which can look different. It's different ... that's the caption for the Great Spouse [Royal spouse, of course].

And this can introduce us to this particular aspect of KmT culture: they "announced" the personages deserving a cartouche with a caption describing their status.
It identifies the roll of the named personage? The social rank and function of the named individual?
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Old October 11th, 2017, 01:28 PM   #32

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Ah, I should have worded differently. I'm looking for what people think the answer might be from their perspectives, considering that there can never be an absolute answer.

The word "continuity" in your post is good.
Modern perspective may be "The King is dead, long live the King."
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Old October 11th, 2017, 01:51 PM   #33

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Some years ago I was researching the frequency of the Heb-Sed through inscriptions. Whether it was a celebration for the 30th year of a Pharaoh, or a fixed period of 30 year cycles, is still an open question.
However, I read somewhere, and it may have been Flinders Petrie, that these obelisks are the creation of pharaohs who celebrated a Heb-Sed.
The number 21 comes to mind, I think the source I used stated that there are 21 surviving obelisks around the world.
The one surviving obelisk of the two erected by Senwosret in honour of Ra-Horakhty does have an inscription to say he dedicated them to mark his Hed-Seb. Though the actual purpose of the obelisks is not connected to the sed festival, but as they were such an undertaking, particularly the bigger ones, that it is not surprising that at least some were connected with a sed. I count, including the new discovery, 25 real AE obelisks extant around the world, only nine remaining in Egypt. Of those 25 it seems maybe six had originally been at Heliopolis, and who knows what is still buried there.

Edit: To clarify, while the fact of an obelisk is not necessarily directly connected to the sed festival, it could be in an indirect manner depending on the exact relationship of the obelisk to the pyramid, and if it is a "microcosm" of the pyramid, which at least in the element of eternity and embedding the pharaoh in this eternity it is.

Last edited by Corvidius; October 11th, 2017 at 02:12 PM.
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Old October 11th, 2017, 01:53 PM   #34

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Modern perspective may be "The King is dead, long live the King."
Yes, to an extent, and with a very heavy emphasis on the "long", but the dead one, not the new one.
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Old October 11th, 2017, 02:22 PM   #35

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It could be said that while a pyramid, and particularly the GP, is very much there in your face, a huge mountain of stone, it is in fact a metaphor on a vast scale and that it represents the invisible in a form for us to comprehend. In fact with the GP it has taken approximately 5,750,000 tons to represent the invisible, a nothing in weight. Genius.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aniconism

Last edited by Corvidius; October 11th, 2017 at 02:24 PM.
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Old October 11th, 2017, 02:38 PM   #36

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It identifies the roll of the named personage? The social rank and function of the named individual?
Yes it does.

A cartouch means that the name is carried by a very important personage [in good substance, within the "Royal club"], but which was the role of that personage?

Anyway there was a canon. Usually a Pharaoh [a King] was indicated by two "Great Names": the "Lord of the Two Lands" name and the "Son of Ra" name.

In the image I've posted we can see Akhenaten [it's the first personage to be presented in that inscription].

Lord of the Two Lands: Neferkheperure-waenre

Son of Ra: Akhenaten
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Old October 11th, 2017, 03:04 PM   #37

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A cartouch means that the name is carried by a very important personage [in good substance, within the "Royal club"], but which was the role of that personage?
Possibly a living embodiment of what the Egyptians saw as the universe, though that word does not really fit for them with their dual concepts of time. Certainly the modified shen ring that we call a cartouche represents eternal protection, and it possibly also stands for eternity per se. That the shen ring is often carried by Horus in both anthropomorphic and falcon forms, shows that it is heavily connected with Horus. In this respect we can say that Horus represents akhet, not in the normal sense of the horizon which we tend to see this as, but as the point at which Ra, in the form of light, ascends from the underworld into the heavens. A pyramid is referred to as an akhet, and a pyramid also represents eterntity in the form of fixed time as opposed the day to day time we live in. Therefore the person in the cartouche could be seen not just as the son of Ra, but a representation of the light of Ra fixed for all time. But whether this is so or not, it links the individual directly to Ra and eternity. I said in a post on another thread that more attention needs paying to Ra-Horakhty, who is the horizon and Ra the light, or is only Aten the light, or....

Disclaimer, I may not be 100% on this and would be lucky to be even 25%, as it is very esoteric......

Last edited by Corvidius; October 11th, 2017 at 03:19 PM.
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Old October 11th, 2017, 03:48 PM   #38
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I do not see much on granite obelisks showing up until the later portion of the Old Kingdom. Am I wrong on that?

No, you are not wrong as far as the archaeological record is concerned. Presumably, obelisks existed in Heliopolis from the Early Dynastic Period as solar symbols, but their is no extant archaeological evidence to demonstrate this.
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Old October 11th, 2017, 03:51 PM   #39
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I just want to throw this out. Does anybody consider why the Great Pyramid is so big? does anybody consider why any of the pyramids are far bigger than anything needed for a tomb, and I quickly state that they are of course tombs. When the VoK was chosen, was it just because it was close to Thebes and that El Qurn reminded them of a pyramid, or was it more specifically chosen for El Qurn, which leads back to why was the Great Pyramid so very very big, far bigger than would seem necessary to us other than in terms of, and this sometimes gets mentioned, megalomania, or more flippantly, from "Futurama", Bender's "Remember me!" episode. I think size must have been important, and not anything to do with vanity, but what?
The answer to this question is actually very simple. The Great Pyramid's size was an expression of the power of the king for whom it was built. He demonstrated his ability, like a god, to command the vast resources of men and material in order to construct a monument for his burial and ultimately for his glory. During the Fourth Dynasty, bigger literally meant better.
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Old October 11th, 2017, 03:55 PM   #40
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What about entering the field of the royal names? It's an interesting field of research [still well alive].

Pharaohs had identified by two of their names [which were not a few ... at least 5]: the "Son of Ra" name, the birth name, and the "Lord of the Two Lands" name [also known in Egyptology, not in KmT, as "throne name"].

Now ... if we look at the cartouches containing the names of a Pharaoh [or a King, since the term "Pharaoh" is later as for application to the royal person, in the beginning it indicated the Royal Palace, then the function and finally, around the beginning of the New Kingdom, the Monarch] we can note something really common ...

Click the image to open in full size.

The bee [and it's quite curious to note that in Ancient Egypt they called it "bjt" ... with a root which sounded like the English "bee" ...]; the duck, the sun ...

What about this?

Above a cartouche in the right section there is a set of symbols which can look different. It's different ... that's the caption for the Great Spouse [Royal spouse, of course].

And this can introduce us to this particular aspect of KmT culture: they "announced" the personages deserving a cartouche with a caption describing their status.
Well, nswt-bity, which is traditionally and not inaccurately, translated as King of Upper and Lower Egypt in all actuality was a adjectival construction known as a "nisbe." The title literally meant "He to whom belongs the Sedge and the Bee." The Sedge and the Bee were the symbols of Upper and Lower Egypt respectively, and the title nswt-bity emphasized the king's rule and ownership of the entire realm.
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