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Old June 22nd, 2018, 12:17 PM   #51

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In old Egypt people were as racist as people are today. Its a normal thing. People are tribal and have not much trust on others who look different.

Sure, tribalism is the prehistoric form of racism and it was common to all populations around the world.


The conception of "race" is not that ancient, so that to talk about "racism" related to ancient civilization is not that historically accurate. But in any case discrimination existed on different bases, but it existed.


I said that Roman discriminated on the base of the Civitas ... that was a "legal racism". Instead of saying "Are you not white? I discriminate you!" they said "Are you not a Roman Citizen? I discriminate you!".
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Old June 22nd, 2018, 05:10 PM   #52

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I think almost by definition, race is a modern concept. One powerful thesis is that the construct of race originated with the African slave trade, helping to justify dehumanization of Africans by categorizing them separately from Europeans on the basis of skin color and appearance.

I understand that there is some debate on this topic, but I don't know of much evidence from Greco-Roman antiquity to support that they made such categorization, with its accompanying devaluation of the Other, on the basis of appearance or skin color. Yes, the Greeks and Romans categorized other people as different than themselves and also devalued them, but I don't think it was on the basis of either appearance or skin color.
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Old June 22nd, 2018, 06:57 PM   #53
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And to a certain extent India? You mean the country that actually has true castes based on color, phenotype, and strict descent is only a certain extent racist?

Are you saying that caste system was based on skin colour and phenotype ? If so may i have some links that proove it.
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Old June 25th, 2018, 08:25 PM   #54
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Total Reservation percentage stood at 69%.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserv..._in_Tamil_Nadu


Pray, how many seats are reserved through affirmative action where you live? 1 percent? 2 percent?
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Old June 25th, 2018, 08:29 PM   #55
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Oh, it was complex. So I guess all the other places it was simple? If India gets absolved because of complexity, what else can be? Racism in the Americas was complex too.
India was complex because it also experienced Buddhist rulers like Ashoka and Kanishka during this time, and 800 years of Muslim rule. I don't the US or European countries were ruled by non Christians, except for the Ottoman ruled Eastern Europe, and medieval Spain.
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Old June 25th, 2018, 08:56 PM   #56
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Indian caste system was not at all based on racism. It was a lie spread by the British to enforce their own racist views on the Indian populace. Indian gods such as Krishna were dark skinned and legendary beauties such as Draupadi were dark too.
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Old June 25th, 2018, 11:57 PM   #57

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India was complex because it also experienced Buddhist rulers like Ashoka and Kanishka during this time, and 800 years of Muslim rule. I don't the US or European countries were ruled by non Christians, except for the Ottoman ruled Eastern Europe, and medieval Spain.
Not quite the same because, contrary to popular belief, muslim Spain WAS muslim by around 1000-1300. So not a people being ruled or occupied so to speak, not on religious grounds anyway.
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Old June 26th, 2018, 05:33 AM   #58

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I assume that you are American. Actually only a few societies in the world created a sort of racial hierarchy based on colour, phenotype and descent, and built a strict caste system with it which even made it impossible for inter-marriages to occur. One of those few countries are the United States - with South Africa, Australia, Spanish and Portuguese America (although different) and to a certain extent, India. All other societies in the world didn’t built their societies on the basis of racial discrimination, but on other kinds of discrimination.
Indeed. Am American. Can confirm. As a Portuguese, you probably know a thing or two about that, given the mixed demography and racial dynamic of Brazil. In either case there was no such thing as "race relations" in ancient times. That's preposterous. They had no concept or race and certainly no ideas even resembling the sort of "scientific" racism based on physical anthropology in the 19th and early 20th centuries. They were, however, xenophobic and considered people outside of Greek culture to be barbarians, regardless of their skin color or European descent.

That being said, you are absolutely right in that they used different means to discriminate against others. They emphasized birthright, for instance, not only as a means of creating legitimate royal genealogies for the Classical Greek and later Hellenistic governments ruled by monarchs, but also for your average citizen proving he belonged to the polis of his birth. That would basically exclude most people on Earth, let alone fellow Greeks. The Greeks themselves were divided into tribal groups for that matter, based on slight cultural and linguistic differences, i.e. the Dorians, the Aeolians, the Aecheans, and the Ionians.

These different Greek tribal groups, however, banded together when threatened by non-Greek invaders like the Persians, Galatian Celts, Illyrians, or Thracians (and sometimes they likewise fought against rival Greek city-states or kingdoms while allied to those same Persians, Galatian Celts, Illyrians, and Thracians). The Greeks also attended pan-Hellenic religious festivals and games, like the ancient Olympics, that excluded others considered non-Greek, but gradually included non-Greeks as honorary Greeks, like the Latin-speaking Romans who became politically and militarily dominant throughout the Mediterranean in the 2nd century BC. In fact, IIRC, the Romans (including perhaps various Italic peoples) first participated in the Greek Olympic Games as early as the Illyrian Wars.

While the Seleucid monarchy followed Alexander's example of Greek/Macedonian men intermarrying with Persian women, Ptolemaic Egypt presented a unique example in the Hellenistic world of ethnic segregation based on "Greeks" and "Egyptians" in the major Greek city-states of Alexandria, Ptolemais Hermiou, and Naukratis. As explained by Samuel M. Burstein (Reign of Cleopatra, Greenwood, 2004), it should be noted that the rest of Ptolemaic Egypt didn't have laws against Greeks and Egyptians and every other ethnic group intermarrying with each other, but in the Greek poleis these laws were enforced rigorously and interaction between different ethnic groups was limited as a result. These ethnic categories could become quite hazy, though, as "Greeks" could eventually include anyone who proved that they lived a Greek lifestyle, received a Greek education, worshiped only Greek gods, and were finally permitted to live in the Greek residential quarters of the city. That means Jews, Persians, Celts, Italic peoples, and even ethnic Egyptians living in these cities could become Greeks if they jumped through enough legal hoops.

Of course, the mid-1st century BC "Gabiniani" Celtic and German soldiers under Aulus Gabinianus overrode these laws by just marrying any local woman they pleased in Alexandria. They assimilated into the Hellenistic Greek culture with the privilege of being veteran soldiers of the Roman Republic. They were sometimes quite lawless as well and competing factions like those of Ptolemy XIII, Cleopatra VII, and finally Julius Caesar curried favor with them so that they would fight for one side against the other. Caesar used them to garrison Egypt after his departure, to keep an eye on Cleopatra and ensure that she remained loyal (and to make sure that she was also secured in her position as a Roman client ruler).

Last edited by RomaVictrix; June 26th, 2018 at 05:51 AM.
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Old June 26th, 2018, 08:30 AM   #59

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Greeks called burn faces people south of their territory like Sirya ... egypt ... nowday considered mostly tanned whites.... they didn't even see blacks. ...
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Old June 26th, 2018, 08:32 AM   #60

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Originally Posted by AlpinLuke View Post
Sure, tribalism is the prehistoric form of racism and it was common to all populations around the world.


The conception of "race" is not that ancient, so that to talk about "racism" related to ancient civilization is not that historically accurate. But in any case discrimination existed on different bases, but it existed.


I said that Roman discriminated on the base of the Civitas ... that was a "legal racism". Instead of saying "Are you not white? I discriminate you!" they said "Are you not a Roman Citizen? I discriminate you!".
But 99% of the Times Romans identified non Romans by their appearence ... so a black wouldn't be even considered as such.
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