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Old December 5th, 2012, 08:12 AM   #261

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Old December 5th, 2012, 08:12 AM   #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamilcar View Post
have you watched those videos on Kazanas's lecture yet? It will provide the responses you ask in regards to chariots and horses. If you want something to read, the video also references several papers he has written on the subject.

Regarding the river, it is not the only argument for OIT, but it is a discussion that needs to be cleared. Whether the vedas were origionally written in sanskrit or not is speculation, the facts we have show a vedic sanskirt was used for the vedas, also sanskrit is the most complete of all the IE languages and the oldest attested known IE language. Mr Kazanas is a linguist by the way.
The river is relevant as it gives us some framing tools for identifying when the rig veda was composed and when these people were in these lands,It is far better than how the AIT had estimated the migration of 'aryans' into the area to be.
If you cant see this it is because you are blind by your bias.
Well, I will stop any further correspondence with you, as you are either lying or do not have an idea about linguistics. Vedic sanskit is neither the oldest, , nor the most archaic IE language, and it has lost several features preserved in other IE languages. Have you heard of Anatolian and Lithuanian?
Obviously not.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 08:14 AM   #263

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamilcar View Post
have you watched those videos on Kazanas's lecture yet? It will provide the responses you ask in regards to chariots and horses. If you want something to read, the video also references several papers he has written on the subject.

Regarding the river, it is not the only argument for OIT, but it is a discussion that needs to be cleared. Whether the vedas were origionally written in sanskrit or not is speculation, the facts we have show a vedic sanskirt was used for the vedas, also sanskrit is the most complete of all the IE languages and the oldest attested known IE language. Mr Kazanas is a linguist by the way.
The river is relevant as it gives us some framing tools for identifying when the rig veda was composed and when these people were in these lands,It is far better than how the AIT had estimated the migration of 'aryans' into the area to be.
If you cant see this it is because you are blind by your bias.
I have no bias. I simply asked for more sources and information to make my own decision. And no, I haven't watched the videos yet. I'm at work and can't. I will later. And please, if you wish to further your cause, don't attack people. That simply turns people away from your ideas and thoughts and they write you off as unimportant and not worth listening to anyway.

In regards to this thread, I thought those posters with the steppe theory supported their arguments better than LoG did. I asked him for most sources supporting his thesis so I could learn more about this alternate idea for the origins of PIE. That's what debates like this are for.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 08:19 AM   #264
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@ Clemmie, for what specific information do you look?
For Linguistics, Midas can probably give better sources, has he obviously has more involment in them than I.
There are also other topics that need to be covered, like Genetics and Archaeology,
were it is possible to give more indications.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 08:21 AM   #265

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Originally Posted by Einharja View Post
@ Clemmie, for what specific information do you look?
For Linguistics, Midas can probably give better sources, has he obviously has more involment in them than I.
There are also other topics that need to be covered, like Genetics and Archaeology,
were it is possible to give more indications.
Just something simple that an old person like me can understand about the basics of linguistics. I followed a lot of the argument, I think, in using words for flora and fauna to try to give a homeland and divergence for PIE, but I'm not sure I got all of it.

I don't know anything about genetics; didn't teach that in the olden days but its obviously very important in studies today. Anything basic there would also be appreciated.

Thanks for your time.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 08:48 AM   #266

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clemmie View Post
What I look for in threads like these are additional works I can read for myself and make up my own mind. The more sources that participants give, I think forum members are better served. It doesn't mean that I agree with one side of the other, I would just like the chance to do my own reading and research and make up my own mind. I wish posters who posit theories and hypothesis understood this, especially LoG. I want to read more about the OOI theory as well as the steppe theory. Give me something to read!
Some time ago a reliable member of the forum (I forgot his name - maybe Shash, civfanatic or manas teja) made comment on this book. I haven't read it yet. But according to the member it is good starting point to learn something about OOI theory.

THE RIGVEDA - A HISTORICAL ANALYSIS

Hope this will be helpful.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 08:49 AM   #267
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@ Clemmie, I look for some easier explanations on the matter, but you also could take a look at this: Elena E. Kuz'mina, James P. Mallory (Editor), The Origin of the Indo-Iranians, Vol. 3, Barnes & Noble, 2007



in the meantime here is some more advanced information for those who do not believe that R1a1 comes from the steppes:

Brief communication: New Y-chromosome binary markers improve phylogenetic resolution within haplogroup R1a1

Horolma Pamjav et al.

Source: Brief communication: New Y-chromosome binary markers improve phylogenetic resolution within haplogroup R1a1 - Pamjav - 2012 - American Journal of Physical Anthropology - Wiley Online Library


Edit: Talageris book is free on the web, but be warned, it contains some ad hominem and rants against "western scholarship".
You should also see Michael witzel review of it, and Talageris reactions...

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~w...eri-answer.htm

Last edited by Einharja; December 5th, 2012 at 08:57 AM.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 08:58 AM   #268

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@Einharja, Jinit.

Thanks for the suggestions. Just what I want.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 11:45 AM   #269

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I don't have much time to analyse things again at the moment, but in order not to go in circles lets make a small resume of some points.

There are several rivers in the IE cosmos

Just remember that around the Black sea you have Dnieper, Don and Danube. You have potential ethnic names comming from those e.g Danaoi, but that is not an indicator of an IE homeland nor should be used as such.



Myths have multiple origins

Just because the Greeks narrate the myth of Deucalion, doesn't make Greek 8000 years old. The flood described might have not even occured in Greece (but in the Black Sea) or if it did (the flooding in Boeotia) it happened at a time Greek was not spoken in what is Greece. The fact that IE populations incorporated pre-existing stories/events in their myths, do not allows us to safely speculate on dates based on them.



So, I just took up two examples, that can and have been missused in the same manner some other points have in this thread. It gives some perspective I believe and demonstrates how easily things can be turned into something really ugly.

Personally, I can't tell you where the IE homeland is. I can tell you where it is not and where it is more plausible to be. I know the work of a lot of linguists around the globe. I know that what sounds most existing isn't always the true story. I know that when something has a good basis, it has multiple/mainstream support, not just few individuals making bold statements.

Just some food for thought...

Last edited by Midas; December 5th, 2012 at 11:53 AM.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 04:01 PM   #270
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Quote:
It still stands Joshua canīt back up his claims, and that in more than thread.
Because he failed to present sufficient evidence , and repeats the same stuff like a Tibetan prayer wheel, this discussion is over for me.
You have been provided evidence by Gauda, Hamilcar and myself. You have not engaged with the evidence, keep on ignoring it and then tell us "You've not provided any evidence" On top of that you are being rude and unreasonable. So I am putting you on ignore.
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