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Old December 5th, 2012, 04:19 PM   #271
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What is ironic here the only "evidence" in favour of AIT/AMT here is comparative linguistics, and the reason I put evidence in inverted commas, it's not actually empirical evidence - it's all theories. The evidence that is not in favour of AIT/AMT is archaeological evidence i.e. empirical evidence.

I will summarize:

*No archaeological evidence has been found of an invasion of the IVC.
* DNA studies have not found any evidence of any migrations of new DNA into India after 10,000BCE
* No archaeological evidence has been found of any PIE remains in central Asia
* Satellite imagery has found the Saraswati river that Indian records record as thriving, and later record as drying up. The river completely dried up in 1900BCE, which means the Mahabharata which records it drying up was before 1900BCE and the Rig Veda which records it as thriving was in far distant antiquity.
* Astronomical observations recorded in the Indian texts have been computed by astronomers and the dates found are 4000BCE for the Vedic texts, 3000BCE for the Mahabharata(which is the date as recorded by the Indian calender)
* Excavations have discovered the IVC already has Vedic features and symbols, including fire altars, swastikas, yoga.
* The city of Dwaraka described in the Mahabharata and Puranas has been found exactly where it says it is, under water of the coast of modern Dwaraka

The evidence is conclusive without even bringing a single linguistic argument in. Linguists who are denying all this evidence are no better than young earthers - denying volumes of empirical data in order to hold onto their fundamentalist beliefs.

If Linguistics wants the luxury of not being empirically tested, then it meets the definition of pseudoscience. All it has is theory, conjecture, supposition - not an iota of empirical evidence.

Last edited by Joshua A; December 5th, 2012 at 04:26 PM.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 09:57 PM   #272

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We have many wrong statements here, so I will comment now and get back with data later. It is the typical thing, I will be bold, say some truths and hopefully people will believe me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua A View Post
*No archaeological evidence has been found of an invasion of the IVC.
FALSE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua A View Post
* DNA studies have not found any evidence of any migrations of new DNA into India after 10,000BCE
FALSE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua A View Post
* No archaeological evidence has been found of any PIE remains in central Asia
Not just FALSE, but ignorant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua A View Post
* Satellite imagery has found the Saraswati river that Indian records record as thriving, and later record as drying up. The river completely dried up in 1900BCE, which means the Mahabharata which records it drying up was before 1900BCE and the Rig Veda which records it as thriving was in far distant antiquity.
I will verify this, but I already explained how stories are absorbed into IE myths, see the example of Greeks and related floods and the three rivers with dVn naming.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua A View Post
* Astronomical observations recorded in the Indian texts have been computed by astronomers and the dates found are 4000BCE for the Vedic texts, 3000BCE for the Mahabharata(which is the date as recorded by the Indian calender)

* Excavations have discovered the IVC already has Vedic features and symbols, including fire altars, swastikas, yoga.
* The city of Dwaraka described in the Mahabharata and Puranas has been found exactly where it says it is, under water of the coast of modern Dwaraka
Falls, into the same category with the absorbation of earlier stories and practices.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua A View Post
The evidence is conclusive without even bringing a single linguistic argument in. Linguists who are denying all this evidence are no better than young earthers - denying volumes of empirical data in order to hold onto their fundamentalist beliefs.

If Linguistics wants the luxury of not being empirically tested, then it meets the definition of pseudoscience. All it has is theory, conjecture, supposition - not an iota of empirical evidence.
Unfortunately for you, the majority of linguists around the world believe differently. I believe the possibility of them being wrong compared to what I have read until now from OOI-people is very small. Considering, that many OOI-theorists override many basic principles of linguistics (such as dating the Vedas to extreme dates) in order to make the theory work, they don't look good in my eyes.


When I get some more time, I will compile a very simple list of things that make it obvious why OOI is not possible. And btw, it is not only about OOI...Out of Armenia or the Anatolian hypothesis are not possible either, even though archaeology supports those theories much better than OOI.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 10:13 PM   #273
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India Acquired Language, Not Genes, From West, Study Says

Most modern Indians descended from South Asians, not invading Central Asian steppe dwellers, a new genetic study reports.
The Indian subcontinent may have acquired agricultural techniques and languages
—but it absorbed few genes—from the west, said Vijendra Kashyap, director of India's National Institute of Biologicals in Noida.
The finding disputes a long-held theory that a large invasion of central Asians, traveling through a northwest Indian corridor, shaped
the language, culture, and gene pool of many modern Indians within the past 10,000 years.

national geographic



Population Differentiation of Southern Indian Male Lineages Correlates with Agricultural Expansions Predating the Caste System

Tribes and castes were both characterized by an overwhelming proportion of putatively Indian autochthonous Y-chromosomal haplogroups (H-M69, F-M89, R1a1-M17, L1-M27, R2-M124, and C5-M356; 81% combined) with a shared genetic heritage dating back to the late Pleistocene (10–30 Kya), suggesting that more recent Holocene migrations from western Eurasia contributed <20% of the male lineages.
We found strong evidence for genetic structure, associated primarily with the current mode of subsistence. Coalescence analysis suggested that the social stratification was established 4–6 Kya and there was little admixture during the last 3 Kya, implying a minimal genetic impact of the Varna (caste) system from the historically-documented Brahmin migrations into the area. In contrast, the overall Y-chromosomal patterns, the time depth of population diversifications and the period of differentiation were best explained by the emergence of agricultural technology in South Asia.

plos


Click the image to open in full size.
Period I 7000 BCE–5500 BCE
Period II 5500 BCE-4800 BCE
Period III 4800 BCE-3500 BCE
Period IV 3500BCE-3250 BCE
Period V 3250BCE-3000 BCE
Period VI 3000 BCE-2600BCE
Period VII 2600 BCE-2000 BCE




STR variance J2
Turkey is 0.52
Balkan [Bosch et al.] is 0.56

J2a in India is 0.34 [Sengupta]
J2b is 0.34

J2a in Turkey is 0.47
J2b is 0.24

Quintana-Murci et al. STR variance haplogroup J
0.57 in Iran
0.47 in Pakistan
0.36 in India
Balkan [Cinnioglu et al.] is 0.63

latest ie homeland map
Click the image to open in full size.

latest epitardigravettians maps
Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

seems pretty clear to me. indo european were the antalyen epigravettians who fled the middle danube when it flooded at the end of the ice age. they worshipped the far sighted goddess who had led them to one of the most beautiful places on earth and then to india

peace
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Old December 5th, 2012, 10:32 PM   #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midas View Post
We have many wrong statements here, so I will comment now and get back with data later. It is the typical thing, I will be bold, say some truths and hopefully people will believe me.
Sure, I wait your evidence.

It is your burden of proof of anyway, as nowhere in Indian history or in the Rig Veda do we find any mention of them ever being outside of India. In fact on the contrary we find them saying they have always been in India and have never known any home outside of it. They describe the geography of India, and the flora and fauna of India. They describe rivers of India in 4000BCE and describe astronomical observations made in India in 4000BCE. They record history of India going back more than 6000 years.

Lets put it this way: If you turn up at my house and say to me "Hi, your house belongs to my ancestors" and I tell you "What are you talking about, we've been living in this house for generations" You damn well need to provide me hard evidence to get me to concede it is your ancestors house - not conjecture, supposition and convoluted linguistic theories.

By the way, while the Vedic people do not record any migrations into India, they do actually record in explicit detail how they migrated out of India both Eastwards and Westwards and colonized the far West

Last edited by Joshua A; December 5th, 2012 at 10:37 PM.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 10:40 PM   #275
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Quote:
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Sure, I wait your evidence.

It is your burden of proof of anyway, as nowhere in Indian history or in the Rig Veda do we find any mention of them ever being outside of India. In fact on the contrary we find them saying they have always been in India and have never known any home outside of it. They describe the geography of India, and the flora and fauna of India. They describe rivers of India in 4000BCE and describe astronomical observations made in India in 4000BCE. They record history of India going back more than 6000 years.

Lets put it this way: If you turn up at my house and say to me "Hi, your house belongs to my ancestors" and I tell you "What are you talking about, we've been living in this house for generations" You damn well need to provide me hard evidence to get me to concede it is your ancestors house - not conjecture, supposition and convoluted linguistic theories.

By the way, while the Vedic people do not record any migrations into India, they do actually record in explicit detail how they migrated out of India both Eastwards and Westwards and colonized the far West

bhujyu [bhujyam the preserver of all] was definitely not in india.

and pal, its not your house any more than its mine.

Last edited by fick; December 5th, 2012 at 11:28 PM.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 10:44 PM   #276
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New research debunks Aryan invasion theory - India - DNA
We have conclusively proved that there never existed any Aryans or Dravidians in the Indian sub continent. The Aryan-Dravidian classification was nothing but a misinformation campaign carried out by people with vested interests,” Prof Lalji Singh, vice-chancellor, Banaras Hindu University, told DNA.

The findings of a three-year research by a team of scientists, including Prof Singh and others from various countries, has been published by American Journal of Human Genetics in its issue dated December 9.

“The study effectively puts to rest the argument that south Indians are Dravidians and were driven to the peninsula by Aryans who invaded North India,” said Prof Singh, a molecular biologist and former chief of Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology, Hyderabad.

According to Dr Gyaneshwer Chaubey, Estonian Biocentre, Tartu, Estonia, who was another Indian member of the team, the leaders of Dravidian political parties may have to find another answer for their raison d'Ítre. “We have proved that people all over India have common genetic traits and origin. All Indians have the same DNA structure. No foreign genes or DNA has entered the Indian mainstream in the last 60,000 years,” Dr Chaubey said.
It's been Indian's house for the last 60,000 years
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Old December 5th, 2012, 10:49 PM   #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua A View Post
New research debunks Aryan invasion theory - India - DNA
We have conclusively proved that there never existed any Aryans or Dravidians in the Indian sub continent. The Aryan-Dravidian classification was nothing but a misinformation campaign carried out by people with vested interests,” Prof Lalji Singh, vice-chancellor, Banaras Hindu University, told DNA.

The findings of a three-year research by a team of scientists, including Prof Singh and others from various countries, has been published by American Journal of Human Genetics in its issue dated December 9.

“The study effectively puts to rest the argument that south Indians are Dravidians and were driven to the peninsula by Aryans who invaded North India,” said Prof Singh, a molecular biologist and former chief of Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology, Hyderabad.

According to Dr Gyaneshwer Chaubey, Estonian Biocentre, Tartu, Estonia, who was another Indian member of the team, the leaders of Dravidian political parties may have to find another answer for their raison d'Ítre. “We have proved that people all over India have common genetic traits and origin. All Indians have the same DNA structure. No foreign genes or DNA has entered the Indian mainstream in the last 60,000 years,” Dr Chaubey said.
It's been Indian's house for the last 60,000 years
the newest genetic study [last week] by the biggest names in genetics says india is 20% first farmer and India's National Institute of Biologicals says the first farmers brought the language.

whatever happened re the caste system is another issue
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Old December 5th, 2012, 10:52 PM   #278
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Quote:
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the newest genetic studu [last week] by the bihhest names in genetics says india is 20% first farmer and India's National Institute of Biologicals says the first farmers brought the language.

whatever happened re the caste system is another issue
You are mumbling - be very specific - give me exact references to this "evidence" and your interpretation of it.

I am sorry I am very smug because I know all the evidence very clearly supports OIT. The fact that the Vedic people have explicitly recorded how they migrated out of India, went westwards and colonized the West is a done deal. The fact that we suddenly find IE tribes appearing exactly in Europe during the timeframe when the Saraswati river starts to dry up validates it.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 11:04 PM   #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua A View Post
You are mumbling - be very specific - give me exact references to this "evidence" and your interpretation of it.

I am sorry I am very smug because I know all the evidence very clearly supports OIT. The fact that the Vedic people have explicitly recorded how they migrated out of India, went westwards and colonized the West is a done deal.

i wish you only the best in your ignorance.

peace
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Old December 5th, 2012, 11:58 PM   #280
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Quote:
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You have been provided evidence by Gauda, Hamilcar and myself. You have not engaged with the evidence, keep on ignoring it and then tell us "You've not provided any evidence" On top of that you are being rude and unreasonable. So I am putting you on ignore.
So what are the links and literature I posted? And where is yours? A link to the Times of India to a study we already discussed elsewhere?
I think everyone can see that you are blatantly lying.
And funnily, if you cannot counter the links and literature I give, you start to ignore me.
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