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Old December 7th, 2012, 03:38 AM   #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avantivarman View Post
@ Einharja

this is your statement

You only grasp at the straw that is the Saraswati, which is mentioned with multiple meaning in a collection of liturgic writings that have been written down after hundred of years of oral tradition. The RV is not a historical record but contains stories of which we do not know how exactly they happened.


Rigveda is not a historical book but do know that it is most important text of Indo European studies in bronze age .

I do not propose OIT as there are many problems in this regard like chariots, linguistics and affinity with iranians in same time frame.

having said that , I do not think that you should disregard saraswati as no one and yes i repeat no one has questioned " oral tradition " of vedas so you may have hundred ways of resolving the issue rather than abusing the whole text.


for start , saraswathi might not be same ghaggar hakra river and things like that .


infact, show me a single recognized scholar who questions that saraswathi is mentioned in Rigveda and is of 1200 bc .

the problem is the identification of saraswati with ghaggar and that can be done in many manners .
When someone is outright dismissing your points as all mythological while much evidence and insight can be gained from it, you know your trying to discuss something with someone who has already made up their mind up.
Much of the mainstream scolars take insights from the rig veda too and some arguments in to justify the AIT. Like the rig veda mentioning 'chariots' which is actually mentioned as a car (4 wheeled large mobile platforms) not the nimble 2 wheeled war chariots that are found elsewhere in the world.
But hey if the rig veda is mythological and such how can we use it to suggest there should be chariots. (this is just to illustrate my point on the inconsistent way in which the rig veda text is being treated).

Also with regard to horse remains, they have found remains but it is disputed at the moment. Also the remains are few, however, they are few before and after a supposed invasion/migration, i.e. we dont see an explosion of horse remains after the suppose aryans arrive when we expect to see them.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 02:28 PM   #292

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Let me get back to the horse & wheel issue and visualize it.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old December 10th, 2012, 02:05 PM   #293
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Sorry lost track of this.

Anyway wanted to provide a set of videos from Nicolas Kazanas which have a more linguistic approach to the OIT.
, see following links to continued videos of the set "all inclusiveness of the rigveda"
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Old December 10th, 2012, 02:18 PM   #294
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[QUOTE=Einharja;1278874]So what are the links and literature I posted? And where is yours? A link to the Times of India to a study we already discussed elsewhere?
I think everyone can see that you are blatantly lying.
And funnily, if you cannot counter the links and literature I give, you start to ignore me.


Edit: Oh, and by coincedence the oldest Swastikas come from the Ukraine...[/QUOTE]

Those that promote the AIT often say that the lack of 'significant reliable' horses and chariot findings in the IVC shows it was not a vedic aryan civilization. But there are horses and of the breed discribed in the rig veda as attested by the number of ribs and teeth the horse is said to have, which is not the same as the established horses that we find elsewhere.
(can provide ref if you did not know this)

Also with regard to the IVC not being vedic. The fact that some of the indus seals themselves are found containing swastikas should give food for taught.
(can provide ref to this too, though you can find it ref through wiki too)

Last edited by Hamilcar; December 10th, 2012 at 02:21 PM. Reason: further detail
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Old December 11th, 2012, 10:59 AM   #295

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamilcar View Post
But there are horses and of the breed discribed in the rig veda as attested by the number of ribs and teeth the horse is said to have, which is not the same as the established horses that we find elsewhere.
(can provide ref if you did not know this)
Horses are described in the Vedas, because Aryans were using them. However, the ribs and teeth that were found were from onagers. We already talked about this earlier.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 02:25 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by Hamilcar View Post
[Edit: Oh, and by coincedence the oldest Swastikas come from the Ukraine...[/QUOTE]

....
Also with regard to the IVC not being vedic. The fact that some of the indus seals themselves are found containing swastikas should give food for taught.
(can provide ref to this too, though you can find it ref through wiki too)

The fact that the Swastikas is also found in native North American art shows that the Swastikas being found in India and Urkaine doesn't mean anything. A Swastika is a universal symbol, like a circle, cross, or square, and as such were independently invented by different people in different times and in different places. It is a powerful symbol that speaks to the human pysche, which is why the Nazi's adopted it at their symbol. They didn't create the Swastika, but they knew it appealed to something in our subconscious.

Quote:
swastika motif was used by some Native American groups. It has been found in excavations of Mississippian-era sites in the Ohio and Mississippi River valleys. It is frequently used as a motif on objects associated with the Southeastern Ceremonial Complex (S.E.C.C.). It was also widely used by many southwestern tribes, most notably the Navajo. Among various tribes, the swastika carried different meanings. To the Hopi it represented the wandering Hopi clan; to the Navajo it was one symbol for a whirling log (tsil no'oli), a sacred image representing a legend that was used in healing rituals.[29] A brightly colored First Nations saddle featuring swastika designs is on display at the Royal Saskatchewan Museum in Canada.[30] Swastika - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old December 12th, 2012, 02:35 PM   #297
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Given the importance of the horse in Vedic culture, and its lack of importance in Indus Valley Civilization, clearly argues against the IVC being Vedic.

(A few equine bones, which could be asses or donkeys, and some ambigious pictures doesn't change the fact. If IVC was Vedic, we should find LOTS of horse bones, clear signs of domestication, and lots of horses in the art work, not just a few maybe pictures. The fact that we don't find lots and lots of pictures of horses, and lots and lots of horse bones compared to other animals, shows the IVC were not interested in horses, and therefore were not Vedic.)

Another strong indication that Vedic is not a continuation of of IVC civilization is that the IVC cities were so completely forgotten by later Indian cultures that even their true names were lost. We have no idea of what they were called, and IVC cities were all abandoned, unlike the comtemporary Sumerian cities. Even when eventually abandoned, we know the name of some of them, such as Ur.
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Old December 13th, 2012, 03:58 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by Bart Dale View Post
The fact that the Swastikas is also found in native North American art shows that the Swastikas being found in India and Urkaine doesn't mean anything. A Swastika is a universal symbol, like a circle, cross, or square, and as such were independently invented by different people in different times and in different places. It is a powerful symbol that speaks to the human pysche, which is why the Nazi's adopted it at their symbol. They didn't create the Swastika, but they knew it appealed to something in our subconscious.
One can not say if it was independently invented or not for certain, as ideas can spread pretty far given enough time and means. But the point that i was making was in regard to Einharja implying that having the 'oldest' swastika in Ukraine (which is not true) is some how validation or being support for that being the indo-european homeland. As i pointed out if you considered it their symbol he would that meet a contradiction by viewing the IVC as non vedic.
I did not see you retort his post.
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Old December 13th, 2012, 04:06 AM   #299

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart Dale View Post
Given the importance of the horse in Vedic culture, and its lack of importance in Indus Valley Civilization, clearly argues against the IVC being Vedic.

(A few equine bones, which could be asses or donkeys, and some ambigious pictures doesn't change the fact. If IVC was Vedic, we should find LOTS of horse bones, clear signs of domestication, and lots of horses in the art work, not just a few maybe pictures. The fact that we don't find lots and lots of pictures of horses, and lots and lots of horse bones compared to other animals, shows the IVC were not interested in horses, and therefore were not Vedic.)

Another strong indication that Vedic is not a continuation of of IVC civilization is that the IVC cities were so completely forgotten by later Indian cultures that even their true names were lost. We have no idea of what they were called, and IVC cities were all abandoned, unlike the comtemporary Sumerian cities. Even when eventually abandoned, we know the name of some of them, such as Ur.

Well IVC might have existed as a mulitcultural state. After all it covered a very large area. So it is possible that another culture along with the vedic culture might have coexisted togather. After all non vedic cultures are mentioned in Mahabharata with one of them being followed in the region of Saraswati and Indus. And it might have created Pagan-christian or great schism like condition in ancient India or atleast in that part.

Bahlika_Culture Bahlika_Culture

As for the disapperance of IVC cities from Indian culkture, again we can't say with surity that Indians actually forgot it. Look at the map of ancient India created on the base of Hindu texts.

Click the image to open in full size.


They do mention lots of cities and kingdoms not only around the Indus river but even in the area of Saraswati river.

Kingdoms mentioned in Sarswati river area.

Saraswata_Kingdom Saraswata_Kingdom

Abhira_Kingdom Abhira_Kingdom

Sudra_Kingdom Sudra_Kingdom

Nishada_Kingdom Nishada_Kingdom

Also as mentioned by LOG the Mahabharata war was faught Predominantly between Eastern vs western India. It might be due to cultural clash.

IMO its too early to say anything about IVC untill thorough research is done on the subject. When they discovered it for the first time, they speculated that it was destroyed by the invading aryans. which is dismissed when they researched it in detail. Then they found out about the Sarswati river which again changed the perceptions about IVC. So I personally think that it will take some time before we finally solved the riddles
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Old December 13th, 2012, 04:18 AM   #300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart Dale View Post
Given the importance of the horse in Vedic culture, and its lack of importance in Indus Valley Civilization, clearly argues against the IVC being Vedic.

(A few equine bones, which could be asses or donkeys, and some ambigious pictures doesn't change the fact. If IVC was Vedic, we should find LOTS of horse bones, clear signs of domestication, and lots of horses in the art work, not just a few maybe pictures. The fact that we don't find lots and lots of pictures of horses, and lots and lots of horse bones compared to other animals, shows the IVC were not interested in horses, and therefore were not Vedic.)

Another strong indication that Vedic is not a continuation of of IVC civilization is that the IVC cities were so completely forgotten by later Indian cultures that even their true names were lost. We have no idea of what they were called, and IVC cities were all abandoned, unlike the comtemporary Sumerian cities. Even when eventually abandoned, we know the name of some of them, such as Ur.
You should note that the horse is not always taken as a literal expression in the RV.
Also having a horse was no simple thing to the vedic people either so though it is highly looked apon it does not mean that they were necessarily abundant in urban common areas.
Considering the IVC had extensive contact with other centres of civilization and was heavily involved in trade. It seems quite natural that they would have knowledge of the horse and its uses. Spoke wheels have been found in the IVC too, up until then people did not believe they had them.

Quote:
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Another strong indication that Vedic is not a continuation of of IVC civilization is that the IVC cities were so completely forgotten by later Indian cultures that even their true names were lost.
This is suggestive that you do not know much about indian history. Asoka - the mauryan empire, the vedas themselves in many parts of india and many other instances of indian history had also been forgotten. This especially was the case when the mughals invaded india and much of the past was distroyed.
The fact that the maurayans were so forgotten would suggest to you that they have no continuity?
This is NOT a strong indication at all.
The IVC civilization being forgotten is testiment to how old it truly is.
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