Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > Ancient History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Ancient History Ancient History Forum - Greece, Rome, Carthage, Egypt, Mesopotamia, and all other civilizations of antiquity, to include Prehistory and Archaeology discussions


Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old June 10th, 2010, 12:04 AM   #1

Jhangora's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Jun 2010
From: Dehradun
Posts: 1,923
Where and When did Indo-European Languages Originate


Indo-European Language Family has the highest number of speakers in the world today. There are various views regarding where the Proto Indo-European speakers lived, what they looked like, which genetic markers should be associated with them, what is the relationship of Indo-European Languages with other languages and language families, when they began to disperse, and whether they spread their language(s) peacefully or violently.

I am no expert in history, linguistics, genetics, or anthropology - however, I think this topic is an interesting one.

Some links :

Indo European Languages

IE Langauges : Centum and Satem

Indo-European Origins in Southeast Europe

The neolithic Turkish origin of Indo-European languages

Did Indo-European Languages spread before farming?

Indo-European Languages

The Spread of the Indo Europeans

Paleolinguistics Ė early spread of Indo-European language group

The Evolution of the Indo-European Languages

"Knowing" Words in Indo-European Languages


INDO-EUROPEAN ETYMOLOGICAL DICTIONARY
Jhangora is offline  
Remove Ads
Old June 10th, 2010, 01:34 AM   #2

Bismarck's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Dec 2009
From: rangiora
Posts: 2,847
Re: Where and When did Indo-European Languages Originate


The 1st year linguistics course I did was one of the most enjoyable courses I ever did, and we studied the migration of the Indo-European language but I cant for the life of me remember definitively where it orginated - somewhere around the Caspian Sea perhaps?
Bismarck is offline  
Old June 10th, 2010, 01:56 AM   #3

Lord_of_Gauda's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Nov 2009
From: Canada
Posts: 6,518
Re: Where and When did Indo-European Languages Originate


IMO, the origin of Indo-European languages is a mystery.
The theory that it originates around the black sea-caspian sea region is supported through 'linguistic center of gravity' idea.
The idea is this:
The origin area of a language would have the oldest type of the said language and also the most diverse dialects and related languages in the immediate vicinity due to the differentiation of a language over time.
Ie, if Mandarin originates in North-West china, it is because this region shows the oldest stratum of Mandarin language as well as the most dialectical and linguistic variety in the Sino-Tibetan language tree.

This idea is fine by itself but IMO it is highly flawed because it overlooks political history: A nomadic group like many of the Indo-European tribes or the Turkic tribes would make this invalid,since linguistic stratum and dialectial differentiation requires a settled civilization evolving linguistically for a long period.
It also overlooks political dynamics- whether a region has been united for a long period of time as an empire with an official language or not, which would again, skew the concept.
So IMO, the origin point of Indo-European languages is a bit of a mystery.
Lord_of_Gauda is offline  
Old June 10th, 2010, 02:07 AM   #4
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Dec 2009
From: Ozarkistan
Posts: 11,335
Re: Where and When did Indo-European Languages Originate


Sanskrit is the oldest attested Indo-European language. Uninformed people jump to the conclusion that all other attested IE languages evolved from Sanskrit; however, the consensus of linguists is that Sanskrit and the others all came from a proto-IE language, Sanskrit itself having evolved from a proto-Indo-Iranian stem of PIE. I find it very interesting that of all European languages Lithuanian is considered closest to Sanskrit (least diverged from common origin).

Since the origins of Indo-European language apparently must be traced to the prehistory of end of the last Ice Age, much is necessarily left to linguistic inferrences and associative archaeological evidence.
corrocamino is offline  
Old June 10th, 2010, 03:30 AM   #5

Frank81's Avatar
Guanarteme
 
Joined: Feb 2010
From: Canary Islands-Spain
Posts: 2,523
Re: Where and When did Indo-European Languages Originate


I favour the Anatolian Hypothesis, it help me a lot understanding a lot of historical procces. In fact, i prefer the Indo-Anatolian hypothesis.

The most conservative branch of the indoeuropean languages is the Anatolian one, Hitite, Luwite and a lot more languages now lost. I think the born place was central-southern Anatolia, because east from these regions it seem that hurrian languages are older; certainly minoan Crete and the pelasgians from Greece spoke languages of the anatolian branch, they were very close related to other people of that peninsula. People from Anatolia spreaded to the northwest and colonized the Balkans all along the Danube and afluents, this is the second borning place, with almost all the indoeuropean branch spreading from some point around this region. Germanic, Celtic, Illyrian, Italian all they should born in a relativelly small region along the lower and central Danube. The western regions of Europe was the last to be reached. Indo-Iranians, or their ancestors, should be people influenced by the spread of the neolithic from the Balkans to the northern shore of the Black Sea, from there they colonized the eurasian steppe and then entered India.


In this sense, i support the Indo-Anatolian hypothesis, which split the older Anatolian languages to one side, and to the other side the new languages developed time after in the Balkans, the true indoeuropean languages.



-------


Achaeans greeks should be a group of Balkan people closely related to traco-illyrians, who migrated to Greece and who settled over the original anatolian peoples there.
Laterly other people related with they, frigians-armenians migrated into Anatolia from the Balkans.
Etruscans were an anatolian people who migrated to Italy by that time.
Frank81 is offline  
Old June 10th, 2010, 05:10 AM   #6
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: May 2010
From: Rhondda
Posts: 2,964
Re: Where and When did Indo-European Languages Originate


Frank81 - I agree. It seems to me fairly convincing that the language spread with farming (cuts out all the conquest bits - those prepared to take up agriculture, like the Basques, just stayed and farmed, and it took so long the others just moved). One big problem, it seems to me, is how it got through some very unpropitious territory to Iran and India - in which case, probably, you need to see it moving - as in the more traditional picture - by way of pastoralists in the Ukraine.

Last edited by Iolo; June 10th, 2010 at 08:31 AM.
Iolo is offline  
Old June 10th, 2010, 06:30 AM   #7
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Dec 2009
From: Ozarkistan
Posts: 11,335
Re: Where and When did Indo-European Languages Originate


Well, a book I read on the subject several years ago asserted that the progressive introgression of IE languages into Anatolia from the west was well established. The inferred path was the Pontic > Balkans > Anatolia.
corrocamino is offline  
Old June 10th, 2010, 07:50 AM   #8

Frank81's Avatar
Guanarteme
 
Joined: Feb 2010
From: Canary Islands-Spain
Posts: 2,523
Re: Where and When did Indo-European Languages Originate


Quote:
Originally Posted by corrocamino View Post
Well, a book I read on the subject several years ago asserted that the progressive introgression of IE languages into Anatolia from the west was well established. The inferred path was the Pontic > Balkans > Anatolia.

Yes that's the kurgan hypothesis (and most accepted) point of view.

------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iolo View Post
Frank81 - I agree. It seems to me fairly convincing that the language spread with farming (cuts out all the conquest bits - those prepared to take up agriculture, like the Basques, just stayed and farmed, and it took so long the others just moved). One big problem, it seems to me, is how it got through some very unpropitious territory to Iran and India - in which case, propably, you need to see it moving - as in the more traditional picture - by way of pastoralists in the Ukraine.
Sure it should be so, although the transition from agriculture to pastoralism tradition seem to be very complex; the original culture from western Ukraine was the Bug-Dniester culture active around 6500 BC, people in a mesolithic stage who were advancing toward the neolitic, but in some moment they were heavilly influenced by the true neolitic culture of Linear Pottery from the Danube and integrated in the highly developed Cucuteni-Tripolie culture, an agriculture-cattle breeding human group (since 5500 BC). The eastern ukrainian culture was the Surska and then the Dnieper-Donets, hunters and fishers, the last one began to adopt neolithic economy but i don't know if this was related to Tripolie culture although they had some ties.
In some moment appear the Sredny Stog culture, between the Dnieper and the Don and related with cultures around the Volga (not neolithic), who fully domesticated the horse by first time in history. I don't know how deep were the relations with the previous cultures from western Ukraine, but certainly those old cultures of the Volga had some connections with the Dnieper-Donets culture.
Anyway, from Sredny Stog developed the Yamna culture, the supposed original indoeuropean culture, and from there the Andronovo culture tha spreaded all across central Asia... and from there to India.

My hypothesis is that the indoeuropeans were the linear pottery peoples and the Cucuteni-Tripolie culture, whose influenced expanded over the eastern peoples of Ukraine...

Last edited by Frank81; June 10th, 2010 at 10:36 AM.
Frank81 is offline  
Old June 10th, 2010, 09:12 AM   #9
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 19,934
Re: Where and When did Indo-European Languages Originate


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jhangora View Post
Indo-European Language Family has the highest number of speakers in the world today. There are various views regarding where the Proto Indo-European speakers lived, what they looked like, which genetic markers should be associated with them, what is the relationship of Indo-European Languages with other languages and language families, when they began to disperse, and whether they spread their language(s) peacefully or violently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bismarck View Post
The 1st year linguistics course I did was one of the most enjoyable courses I ever did, and we studied the migration of the Indo-European language but I cant for the life of me remember definitively where it orginated - somewhere around the Caspian Sea perhaps?
The same as Bis, I still favor the Kurgan hypothesis:
Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Kurgan_hypothesis Kurgan_hypothesis
.
sylla1 is offline  
Old June 10th, 2010, 07:48 PM   #10

Satuf's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Nov 2009
From: Nebraska
Posts: 3,474
Re: Where and When did Indo-European Languages Originate


Wasn't Elamite an Indo-Euro language? If so, then it's the oldest one and originates in Persia.
Satuf is offline  
Closed Thread

  Historum > World History Forum > Ancient History

Tags
indoeuropean, languages, originate


Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Where do the Hebrews originate from? Nick Ancient History 43 March 20th, 2014 11:34 PM
When and where did the Star of David Originate? Salah General History 5 March 18th, 2010 11:41 AM
The Etruscanís are the founding Romans. Where did they originate? laketahoejwb Ancient History 9 February 21st, 2010 10:16 PM
Salutations from an Indo-Canadian Lord_of_Gauda New Users 15 November 30th, 2009 07:06 AM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.