NewModelSoldier

I've always been fascinated with the Peloponnesian War, the interesting historical figures, the politics, the triumphs and the tragedies. One particular episode of the War that holds specific interest is the Sicilian Expedition.

Do you think it at all wise for the Athenians and the Delian League to have begun this venture? Do you think the expedition would have had better success with Alcibiades in full control and not subject to trials by his enemies? If they had swept the Syracusans quickly, would the Spartans have fought against Athens having seen Athenian Empire might?

Lot of questions and I hope you have some more and we can start a good debate!

Labienus

I indeed think that the expedition would have been a success with Alcibiades in command because it was his plan after all and his replacement lacked the military skills Alcibiades was blessed with.

An Athenian victory would have certainly made things much more interesting.

NewModelSoldier

I think it wasn't even worth the effort, both Athens and Sparta had come out of the first phase of the War fairly battered, with Spartans actually surrendering (!) at Sphacteria, and Athens having lost face behind the Periclean walls and suffering other defeats. The Delian League, while the face of the Athenian Empire, was cracking with seething anger at Athens, they could not afford to spend a lot of time, troops and money when they had more pressing priorities. Thats just me.

Alcibiades

Actually,in my opinion,the lowest point for Sparta before Sicilian Expedition was not surrender at Sphacteria(although it was no doubt strike at morale),but immediately before Battle of Mantinea(418 BC).If Spartans had lost that battle,they would have been in the very much the same situation as Athenians after Aegospotami(defeated and crumpled).War would have been over.
Alcibiades

NewModelSoldier

Hmm you may be right there. But how do you feel about launching the invasion at all, and the chances of success if Alcibiades if he had full control, and what would be the results of the success?

Alcibiades

You could probably guess that there is no way I won't respond to this.I am very much of the same mind as you.I have always been utterly fascinated with Peloponnesian War(much more than Persian War).So many personalities,such duration,such twists and turns,human drama etc etc.

Historians have long considered Sicilian Expedition as one of the greatest turning points in whole of Antiquity.Modern ones are more moderate(due to a less of a Athenian-centric views).But still,there can be no doubt that S.E. was the turning point of Peloponnesian War.The fact that Athens managed to hold on for 9 more years after such a catastrophe(as well as several major setbacks immediately after)really speaks in their favour.

Yes,I do believe that under Alcibiades(by far,the greatest Athenian general of that time)Expedition would have been immensely more successful(they managed to come close as it is,even under such a piss-poor commander as Nicias).

Now,whether it was wise to undergo such a huge gamble when the "cold war" with Sparta(not to mention a very hot one with Thebes and Corinth)was still unresolved?In my opinion,no.I think their efforts would have been better employed at stirring rebelions in Peloponnesus,and trying to break apart Peloponnesian League from within.

With that being said,I do have to say that Athenians had their work cut for them in this war,what with Persian's unlimited monetary and naval support(which was IMO one of the main factors in Athenian defeat).
Alcibiades

sylla1

My guess is that good ol' Alkibiades was as usual just looking for his own benefit, presumably in the form of a personal realm or colony, and naturally trying to use the resources of the Delian League in the process, irrespectively of the fate of his comrades or his homeland: more or less like Pausanias in Byzantion after the Persian War or Monsieur Buonaparte in the Middle East (1798).

IMHO the expedition was ill-conceived from the very beginning and doomed to failure, at least from the perspective of Athens (not necessarily Alki); the polis simply lacked the resources required for such enterprise, not to tell simultaneously facing the Peloponessians.

BTW, the Spartans had already faced the mighty Persian empire, and they would eventually face the even more powerful Makedonian empire; I simply can't imagine they going down without a fiercely fight against any opponent.

okamido

Very marginal chance of success to begin with. Syracuse was too far away to be properly reinforced in the event that a problem arose, there wasn't truly a great deal of political support for the expidition in the first place, Syracuse had a large gold supply, a very strong cavalry force, and a not too shabby navy. Once you added the Spartan Mothax, Gylippus, to organize the Syracusan military, it was fait d'accompli.

It is highly unlikely that even Alkibiades would have been successful unless he would be able to draw the Syracusans out and deliver a knock out punch right from the start.

If the original conception of the mission was adhered to, one of defending western Sicilian allies from Syracuse, I believe success could have been in the hands of the Athenians. This bloated mistake of actually attempting to conquer Syracuse and most likely the whole of Sicily however, was just a fubar from the moment it was altered to such.

Alcibiades

I would actualy agree with you that the Expedition was a mistake.Howerer,I must point out that you are ignoring that:1)it almost worked as it is,even under crappy and undecisive leadership,2)Sparta's involvement was solely because of Alcibiades's constant pushing to do something.

Sparta was known troughout centuries to be extremely slow at making decisions and painfully inactive.In fact,Lysander was the first Spartan in her history who had a drive and passion of an Athenian(Brasidas had a little bit of it,but not nearly enough).Seeing how Expedition was progressing before Sparta's involvement,I say the chances are that,under Alcibiades,Syracuse would have fallen,and rather quickly(in a year,mostly).
Alcibiades

Thessalonian

Alcibiades just covered me up!