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Old November 22nd, 2010, 12:35 PM   #21
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Re: The Thracians and their place in history


Thracians were always overshadowed by the Greeks, although they were not entirely foreign to them... According to mythology, they were Hellenic tribes, or at least they descent from them!
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 12:49 PM   #22
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Re: The Thracians and their place in history


It seems that the classical Thracian Odrysian state was at least as Hellenized as the Makedonians.

Across the Archidamian War, the Odrysian king Sitalces had some relevance as an Athenian ally against Perdikkas II.

By the time of Philippos II, the Thracians seemed to have been mostly incorporated within the Makedonian realm; Thracian troops were certainly included within the army of Alexandros III.
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 12:55 PM   #23

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Re: The Thracians and their place in history


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Originally Posted by Thessalonian View Post
Thracians were always overshadowed by the Greeks, although they were not entirely foreign to them... According to mythology, they were Hellenic tribes, or at least they descent from them!
Yet different hellenic scholers had rather bad opinion about the thracians.

Thracians were just unable to form one united kingdom. Even the Odrysian state which sylla1 mentioned, didn't included all thracian tribes.
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 01:14 PM   #24

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Re: The Thracians and their place in history


Quote:
Originally Posted by sylla1 View Post
It seems that the classical Thracian Odrysian state was at least as Hellenized as the Makedonians.

Across the Archidamian War, the Odrysian king Sitalces had some relevance as an Athenian ally against Perdikkas II.

By the time of Philippos II, the Thracians seemed to have been mostly incorporated within the Makedonian realm; Thracian troops were certainly included within the army of Alexandros III.
Indeed,some of Thracian tribes were very much assimilated to Macedonian state.Agrianians were one of the most important light troops in Alexander's army(and one of the most often mentioned).
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 07:49 PM   #25

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Re: The Thracians and their place in history


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Interesting post Anna.Thanks
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Thank you, Alkibiades. Thank you, sturm, for posting maps /I don't have a scanner and can't put any/, so I will refer to yours, I hope you don't mind.
I think I this time will start as far back in time as I can find sources.
The Thracians were an Indo-European people, in the Neolithic age they inhabited the area from Greece up to the Danube, also Northern Asia Minor, Biotia, Evoia, today's Romania, Moldova, part of Ukraine, and part of Panonia.
In 7 000 BC, the Thracians inhabited the area between Greece and Russia.
The Thracians and Mycenians were from the same group, but split - the Mycenians settled in today's Greece, the Thracians in Thrace. http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Thracian
So, I think the Greek creation myth was quite right - The Thracians are Greeks were related. Another thing is why according to this myth the Thracians came from Ares - the War God. This is what I found out - as far as eponimic heroes go, the Greeks in their cosmogony explained every people in their time as literally children on the gods; the choice of eponimic heroes is psychology-ethnography related - with other words, the Greeks had their stereotipes about every nation in their time and would give them a genealogy based on their own perception of the qualities and the responsibilities of their gods. They saw the Thracians as warriors, therefore they endowed them with the parenthood of their war-god, who was also believed to had lived in Thrace, obviously why. So for the Greeks the Thracians were their war-loving relatives, but not a very close ones - their language was not connected with the Greek. This was a quite distant relationship, just enough for the Thracians to be considered barbarians, albeit not completely foreign ones.
About the Thracian language - so far, AFAIK, it was a Indo-European one, from the Eastern group, which linked them with the ancient Iranians, Slavs, Balts, with the Scythians, Cimmeriens and Sarmatians.http://english.turkcebilgi.com/Thracians
Thracian was spoken in the territories of modern Bulgaria, most of Eastern Serbia, Eastern Macedonia /the source says Macedonia, not FYROM and I'm quoting it word for word/, NOrthern Greece, European Turkey, parts of Bythinia. Many historians considered Thracian and Dacian-Getian languages coming from a common ancestor-language, /which makes sense, because the Thracians and Dacians were the same Thracians - so I will use the word Thracian-Dacians/, so therefore including the Dacian-Getian the language was spoken on the territories of modern Romania, Dobrudja, North-Eastern Serbia, Moldava, West-Central Ukraine, and East Hungary.
http://empireofthrace.net/general-in...cian-language/. This source gives some plausible words that could have been part of the Thracian language, organized in a glossary. I personally don't put stock in glossaries like that because this is too much guesswork for my taste - the Thracian wasn't a written language, AFAIK, and all the epigraphic sources are written in Greek /in Bulgaria there are not many of those, an occasional name or two/. The Thracians were a "mute" culture, so to speak, and we have to use Greek sources, interpreting them through the prism of our knowledge about the Thracians, when we get to religion this will be very clear.
As a genotype they were Mediterranian people,with darkish complexion. Fol, Penkov and Marazov have theoretised that the Thracians were part of a wider Traco-Pelasgian group of people due to the observed parallels between the Minoan, Mycenian and Phrigian culture /which corroborates with the theory that the Mycenians and Thracians were one people, and split sometime around or after the 7 000 BC/.
My desire is to follow the timeline and start bringing sources, writhing a post every day or so, I hope it's OK. Unfortunately I well need time to organize whatever sources I can find; I have this cool book that collects all the ancient sources about the Thracians, but it's unavaliable...somewhere in my proverbial truck-full-with-books witch I cannot take out because I have no place to put them. So I will have to scan say, the whole "Iliad" to find all the references to the Thracians. I tried to find something like this on the net, but no luck...so I will take my time, just be patient with me, I will get the job done.

Last edited by Anna James; November 22nd, 2010 at 09:39 PM.
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 09:47 PM   #26

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Re: The Thracians and their place in history


Please,if you can find the will and strength to do it,I would be much grateful,Anna.Thanks
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 10:01 PM   #27

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Re: The Thracians and their place in history


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Please,if you can find the will and strength to do it,I would be much grateful,Anna.Thanks
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Thank you, Alkibiades! I surely will do it, will and strength I definitely have.
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 11:05 PM   #28
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Re: The Thracians and their place in history


Thracians at 7000 BC? Would you please look at all the different cultures from 7000 to the historical appearence in the last half of the 2nd millenium BC.
What definition for Thracians do you use to support your statement?
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 11:12 PM   #29

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Re: The Thracians and their place in history


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Thracians at 7000 BC? Would you please look at all the different cultures from 7000 to the historical appearence in the last half of the 2nd millenium BC.
What definition for Thracians do you use to support your statement?
I left a link on the data. This one http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Thracian
Besides I'm not setting anything in stone, I look for data, post it, and sometimes say my opinion on the plausibility of it.

Last edited by Anna James; November 22nd, 2010 at 11:31 PM.
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Old November 23rd, 2010, 12:00 AM   #30
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Re: The Thracians and their place in history


I don't deny, that some Thracians may had ancestors among the neolithique population, perhaps even a lot. The problem with the Thracians is, that we know about them from greek sources and those sources aren't older than the 9th or 8th century. Of course stories like the Troian war can be linked with the 13th/12th century, but we don't know, how much of it is real and how much literally. So we have no proven data by written sources older than 2800 or 2900 years. The problem with archaeological evidence is, that pottery doesn't speak. So it is really difficult to link a nation with a culture.
I am not a specialist of Thracian history, I can just use my knowledge about Germanics and Celts. Here we have quite better informations, but still have problems to say, when they developed and where and by what earlier groups. It is often so, that we have written sources who definately speak of Germanics in a special area, but the archaeological artefacts are completely celtic
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