Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > Ancient History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Ancient History Ancient History Forum - Greece, Rome, Carthage, Egypt, Mesopotamia, and all other civilizations of antiquity, to include Prehistory and Archaeology discussions


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old November 23rd, 2010, 04:28 AM   #31
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Aug 2010
From: Central Macedonia
Posts: 17,765
Blog Entries: 4
Re: The Thracians and their place in history


Settlements in Thessaly and other parts of Greece do date back to 6500 - 6800 BC. If they dig deeper, I am sure they will find older villages.
Thessalonian is offline  
Remove Ads
Old November 23rd, 2010, 04:59 AM   #32

sturm's Avatar
миротворец
 
Joined: Jul 2009
From: Bulgaria
Posts: 8,893
Blog Entries: 1
Re: The Thracians and their place in history


Quote:
Originally Posted by beorna View Post
I don't deny, that some Thracians may had ancestors among the neolithique population, perhaps even a lot. The problem with the Thracians is, that we know about them from greek sources and those sources aren't older than the 9th or 8th century. Of course stories like the Troian war can be linked with the 13th/12th century, but we don't know, how much of it is real and how much literally. So we have no proven data by written sources older than 2800 or 2900 years. The problem with archaeological evidence is, that pottery doesn't speak. So it is really difficult to link a nation with a culture.
I am not a specialist of Thracian history, I can just use my knowledge about Germanics and Celts. Here we have quite better informations, but still have problems to say, when they developed and where and by what earlier groups. It is often so, that we have written sources who definately speak of Germanics in a special area, but the archaeological artefacts are completely celtic
The Burial side at Varna Necropolis (i posted one photo of it), is dated back to 4000 BC and the dating is preformed by Radiocarbon dating.
sturm is offline  
Old November 23rd, 2010, 05:25 AM   #33
Historian
 
Joined: Jan 2010
From: -
Posts: 17,473
Re: The Thracians and their place in history


I am willed to believe you, sturm. But is it Thracian, Proto-Thracian, pre-Thracian or Eteo-thracian?
beorna is offline  
Old November 23rd, 2010, 06:02 AM   #34

Anna James's Avatar
Pro Bono Advocate
 
Joined: Sep 2010
From: currently Ancient Odessos, BG
Posts: 7,699
Blog Entries: 11
Re: The Thracians and their place in history


Quote:
Originally Posted by beorna View Post
I am willed to believe you, sturm. But is it Thracian, Proto-Thracian, pre-Thracian or Eteo-thracian?
According to the sources I quoted the word"Thracian" is used for the first Neolitic settlers in the area, so then the Varna Necropolis would be Thracian no matter what the prefix. You have to call the earliest inhabitants something.
Of course, as you mentioned about the Celts, we can never be completely sure, and I bring this point all the time when talking about history, but with the "mute" cultures one really don't have a choice but to assume, otherwise one can't investigate them at all.
Anna James is offline  
Old November 23rd, 2010, 06:15 AM   #35
Historian
 
Joined: Jan 2010
From: -
Posts: 17,473
Re: The Thracians and their place in history


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna James View Post
According to the sources I quoted the word"Thracian" is used for the first Neolitic settlers in the area, so then the Varna Necropolis would be Thracian no matter what the prefix. You have to call the earliest inhabitants something.
Of course, as you mentioned about the Celts, we can never be completely sure, and I bring this point all the time when talking about history, but with the "mute" cultures one really don't have a choice but to assume, otherwise one can't investigate them at all.
Well, the problem is that we have sources, that call those people Thracians, who lived in the 9/8 century or perhaps in the 13/12th century. I can't see, why we should now call cultures "Thracian" that existed 3,4,5 or 6 milleniums before. Imagine we have a source about US citizens in 1790 and find some artefacts of 2000 BC and now call these artefacts US-culture. Or if we would call the megalith-culture German or Celtic, because later there lived celts and Germanics. or let us look to Italy. The Italians are the descendants of the Romans, but Italians are no Romans and Romans no Italians.
beorna is offline  
Old November 23rd, 2010, 03:55 PM   #36

Anna James's Avatar
Pro Bono Advocate
 
Joined: Sep 2010
From: currently Ancient Odessos, BG
Posts: 7,699
Blog Entries: 11
Re: The Thracians and their place in history


Quote:
Originally Posted by beorna View Post
Well, the problem is that we have sources, that call those people Thracians, who lived in the 9/8 century or perhaps in the 13/12th century. I can't see, why we should now call cultures "Thracian" that existed 3,4,5 or 6 milleniums before. Imagine we have a source about US citizens in 1790 and find some artefacts of 2000 BC and now call these artefacts US-culture. Or if we would call the megalith-culture German or Celtic, because later there lived celts and Germanics. or let us look to Italy. The Italians are the descendants of the Romans, but Italians are no Romans and Romans no Italians.
I don't think that the Varna Necropolis cannot be called Thracian. I studied the artifacts found there are they are in a perfect agreement with the later Thracian artifacts, I'm so sorry that this documentation is now in Bulgaria and I can't show it. Also, I personally was in a archeological dig in the prehistoric village in Karanovo, Iambol's region, Bulgaria, when there was found a gold ring with the exactly the same characteristics as the rings found in Varna, I was there on the site, I saw it with my two good eyes, it happened one old lady to find it just next to me. I know the pottery, because I spent 1 month registiring it and writing the numbers on every little piece of it /the pottery does speak, by the way, if one knows how to listen - the patterns in every culture are very conservative, the way of making it even more, baking, in what temperature...it's a science/. Here is a link on the archeological site, even though it's too basic http://www.iianthropology.org/lecturekishinev.html The author of the article is a Bulgarian archeologist from the International Institute of Anthropology, so I think it's pretty objective source. Karanovo I-II is dated from the first half of 6 000 BC, Early Neolithic era.
I'm very convinced, based on what artifacts I personally handled and what I studied and saw in museums /on front and in the back rooms/, that the Varna Necropolis of 4000 BC and Karanovo from 6000 BC settlements by the Thracians with a cultural thread to tie them just fine to the 9-8 cent. BC.
This has nothing to do with the examples you are giving. I try to be honest with myself and to avoid all kind of traps like this.
Besides the greatest Bulgarian Thracologists, and the very greatest one, Alexander Fol here link on him [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Fol"]Alexander Fol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame] I don't need to sell him, he is an international name, are/were /unfortunately he died some years ago/ supporters of this. I had the honor to be his student, by the way, I had never met anyone so deeply knowlegeable on the subject, I have no word strong enough for that. Go on the wiki link, see were it says that Fol was a director of the Drama excavations together with professor Jan Lichardus from the Saarland University Saarbrucken /a very colourfull man/, the digs started in 1983, I was there in the summer on 2000.
By the way, a large amount of the documentation and studies on the Bulgarian Thracology is in German and I can't read it, but you can, so if you need proof, find it and read it, I'm sure you can find in easily in Germany.
With one sentence, beorna, I had been on the subject fro more that 13 years, and I read innumerable books and articles, and so bunch of things, but I can't explain this in 13 sentences, and when you had spent so much time on something it rubbs off on you, and you get a feeling for it, "gut feeling", this is all can tell you - my "guts" tell me that the Thracians are the 7000 BC original population in the areas I'm talking about. Now, if you want more proof, you have to do what I did, work on it for 13 years, because I can't give you more than I already did. Find books and studies on the Thracians, go to at least 1 dig, spend weeks in museums, read all the ancient sources that even include the Thracians, the whole books I mean, not only the passages that mention the Thracians, because you have to know their background, investigate thousand Bulgarian folk songs and tens of customs, read Bulgarian Ethnology, learn Bulgarian because not everything will be available in translations...and in 13 years come and we will talk about the subject. When on the subject, go talk to Jan Lichardus, he is a great guy, I hope he is OK.
And about your last sentence, I didn't say that the Bulgarians are Thracians per se, I said that the Bulgarians retain many remnants from Thracian time, and that they have a significant Thracian heratige, and I will try to bring as much as I can about it here. How much Italians are or not the descendants or the Romans I don't know, I never studied such a dilemma, and I will not have enough time in my life to do it /one big personal research like the Thracian one is for a lifetime/; so I can't say if it's comparable to the Thracians and the Bulgarians because I didn't study the problem.

Last edited by Anna James; November 23rd, 2010 at 08:35 PM.
Anna James is offline  
Old November 23rd, 2010, 04:51 PM   #37

Anna James's Avatar
Pro Bono Advocate
 
Joined: Sep 2010
From: currently Ancient Odessos, BG
Posts: 7,699
Blog Entries: 11
Re: The Thracians and their place in history


I'm going to bring now the most ancient tradition and ritual the Thracians took with them to the territory of modern Bulgaria - the "Hieros Gamos" - the 'Sacred Marriage". This is a prehistoric rite /playing out the Sacred Marriage between a God and a Goddess in order to secure fertility and plenty for the year to come/, archeological evidence from 4 000 in Uruk proves it's use there and it's age.
The archeological evidence that it was use by the Thracians is on this link http://www.motoroads.com/why_bul_treasures.html scroll down to the "Letnitsa Treasure" the plaque at right. One has to see it, because I'm going to use the image. But keep in mind, this is not porn!
So, on the plate we see a man and a woman in sexual intercourse, and another woman on the left holding a flower above-forward of them. The image is naturalistic, almost too graphic /definitely too graphic for my taste, if it wasn't history I wouldn't talk about it at all/, raw and powerful.
"Hieros Gamos" has been studied the best in the Mesopotamia, in the rite of Dumuzi and Inanna. Here some links on it
http://www.gatewaystobabylon.com/ess...emarriage.html
http://www.matrifocus.com/IMB05/spotlight.htm
http://www.ravenfamily.org/ffetch/comments/sacred_m.php
http://awitchintime.wordpress.com/20...cred-marriage/
http://www.goddess.org/religious_sex.html
http://www.philipcoppens.com/hierosgamos.html
The idea is to secure fertility with the very power of creation available to humans, so a young man, priest or a king, or a "king for a day" and a young woman, priestess or not, present a very public ritual of love-making, after which the happy "Goddess" tells that because she is so happy the following year is going to be very productive. There are numerous documentations for this ritual from the Middle East and Ancient Europe, and the ritual have different variations in different cultures, from the "religious prostitution" to the "Feast of Beltael" and the Sacred Passion of the Celts. By the law of inheritance of religious forms the Hiero Gamos passed to the Jewdaism and in Christianity /the Sacred Marriage between the Soul and Christ, the very Virgin Birth by Mather Mary/ here a link http://northernway.org/goddess.html .
We know that the Innanna-Dumuzi ritual was very public, and Herodotus talkes about the Sacred Prostution, and even some obscure custom in some Arabic countries are said to impose on the newlywed bride to have sex with all her husband's male relatives, this is a form of Hiero Gamos.
Hiero Gamos was a part of the Orphism and the Mysteries of Eleusis http://www.widdershins.org/vol5iss4/06.htm the authors argue if it was a real coitus, or a symbolic one, and my personal opinion is that is was something in the middle, which I call "mental sensuality". Now, here I want to take some time and explain what I mean, because this is s very slippery surface and I want to be sure that I will be understood correctly.
Even though that every sexual interaction is 50%-50% mind and body activity, there are occasions when only one of the used planes is working. I'm sure that everyone has had an occasion to participate in a coitus only with his/her body, the mind being somewhere else. So, here is only the physical side in action. Under certain circumstances, it's possible that only the mental side is used /and I don't mean any kind of self-adoring, to use an euphemism, I mean only mind, only thought/, under heavy visual and/or hearing stimulation, and this can bring a climactic or non-climactic sexual ending. In the said mysteries, the evidence for and against bodily participation is split, but both sides /platonic and physical, as far as historians argue/ agree that there was symbolical stimulation, and the feeling of completed sentualisation /that's why some historians insist that there was a consummated sexual act/ - what we got in the brain is all we know. So, I think /and this is my opinion/ the Orphic mysteries used a "mental sexual act" to conclude the initiation of the new member to the cult. Unfortunately, since this is my own reasoning, I can't give you any sources on the "mental sensuality", because there are none, AFAIK, I have only my personal testimony of it's existence.
Now, the Thracians were Orphists, and the fact of finding a plate, made in the specific tradition of the Thracian gold-crafting, which quite unmistakably represents the Hiero Gamos proves two things:
1. The Thracians were a very ancient Indo-European people, who possessed the said ritual from before time immemorial, before they came to Europe, before they separated from the others like them who went somewhere else - the Middle East, the Far West and so on.
2. The person who made/ordered/used this plate was an Orphist, most probably a King or at least from aristocratic family /the ordinary Thracians weren't allowed to use gold, it was the king's metal/, and there were probably more like him. Typically the initiated in the Orphic mysteries would keep the knowledge of what happened secret, since it was a "mystery", something to keep to yourself, that's why we know so little what could possible had happened there, so the use of this plaque as a part of horse ammunition,/quite public thing, one ride hie horses outside, not in his bedroom/, signifies that the rite had so old roots, that it was excepted as a matter of fact. In Greece, to compare, the Orphic rite was secret with a capital "C", because the Dorians who replaced the Myceneans didn't have Hieros Gamos, so it was a hush-hush thing. So even though, the plaque was dated 400-350 BC, the rite itself was at least couple of thousand years old, or more /rites like that are extremely conservative, one nation don't adopt them in later years, one have them or not. Egyptians, even though they lived side to side with the Mesopotamians and fougth and traded with them never adopted Hieros Gamos. Greeks though preserved some of the tradition in their mythology with the celebrating the wedding of Zeus and Hera in the Heraion of Samos [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraion_of_Samos"]Heraion of Samos - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame] wich is sign that the old Myceneans might have had it, and it was "discarded" by the Dorians and pushed out to Samos.
The Greek tradition ties Thrace with the Orphism - it originated from there, Orpheus was a son of a Thracian king, and Plutarch talks about the people of Samothrace always had been addicted to Orphism and "...imitated in many thing the practices of the Edonian and Thracian women about Mount Haemus, from whom the word 'threskeuein" seems to have been derived, as a special form for superlfluous and over-curious form of celebration..." /Plutarch, Lives, Alexander, ch.2, toward the end on the chapter/. I think this is enough Orphism for one day, I will talk about it later, now I'm concentrated on the archaisity of the Hiero Gamos tradition of the Thracians.
I never came to sources that would state that the Thracians had a public Hiero Gamos /Herodotus had a eye for such details, and he doesn't say anything/, which may or may not mean that this ritual was public. The Thracians were kind of reticent, they weren't much into city life, so it's possible they kept such stuff for themselves /it's a heady enough activity/, all we know is that it existed.
The Thracians were notorious for their heavy drinking, and there may be a religious shade to it, Dionisus' mysteries and rites were quite telling about the Sacred Drinkenness", /now, don't you guys use it as a excuse for heavy Christmas alcohol abuse/, and the Hiero Gamos rites weren't exactly dry activity, I would speculate.
At the end , I offer this explanation of the figures on the plate from Letnitsa - the man is the King, the woman is the Nature, the second woman with the flower is the blessing that is to come along in the form of fertility on women, of fields, on animals. In Bulgaria there is still the custom of the "koledari" - young man from the village go from house to house and "bless" the people living there, patting them on the back with a stick decorated with popcorn, bread-circles and flowers /made of, course, no one can find a flower just for Christmas/ and singing songs for all kinds of fertility to come...something like that, if I remember right:
Peaceful, peaceful year, merry year,
Golden wheat in the field, red apple in the garden,
To be happy, to be healthy, till next year, till next forever.
This is just what I learned as kid, I have somewhere book with folk songs like that, far more detailed - for new calf from every cow, and baby-goat from every goat, and lamb from every ewe, and new baby from every married woman...when I find it, I will post some.
Here it is the remnant of the Hiero Gamos in modern Bulgaria, strait from the prehistory, courtesy of the Thracians.

Last edited by Anna James; November 23rd, 2010 at 08:31 PM.
Anna James is offline  
Old November 23rd, 2010, 09:39 PM   #38

Perix's Avatar
Golan&Imbarligator
 
Joined: Dec 2009
From: Romania
Posts: 9,963
Re: The Thracians and their place in history


I don't think the pre-historical cultures were thracians. They were palasgians(thracians were indo-europeans). Like all indo-europeans, thracians probably arrived after 2000 BC, and, probably, asimilated much from pelasgian cultures
Perix is offline  
Old November 23rd, 2010, 09:55 PM   #39

Anna James's Avatar
Pro Bono Advocate
 
Joined: Sep 2010
From: currently Ancient Odessos, BG
Posts: 7,699
Blog Entries: 11
Re: The Thracians and their place in history


Quote:
Originally Posted by Perix View Post
I don't think the pre-historical cultures were thracians. They were palasgians(thracians were indo-europeans). Like all indo-europeans, thracians probably arrived after 2000 BC, and, probably, asimilated much from pelasgian cultures
Fol, Marazov i Penkova argued that the Thracians were part of the bigger Thracian-Pelasgian culture. Basically, a lagre gruop of Indo-Europeans, related to...I mentioned in my 1st post here, came around, split on Thracians /on the Balkans/ and Myceanians /in Greece/, and then the Dorians came in Greece and assimilated the Mycenians, so the Thracians were left to hang on there.
The Thracians seem to felt related more to the Asia Minor, as they were, in a matter of fact. Homer says that they agreed to ally with the Greeks againts Troy, but lied and joined Troy. I will read over the Iliad tomorrow to find it. There are other related stuff - ceramics etc, there was a definite cultural connection between the Thracian, Mycenieans, Crete, Asia Minor.
Before the turn of the 20 cent. the "Mycenians" were called "Pelasgians" here a link http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/...-5/me-vonk.htm

Last edited by Anna James; November 23rd, 2010 at 10:23 PM.
Anna James is offline  
Old November 23rd, 2010, 10:33 PM   #40
Historian
 
Joined: Jan 2010
From: -
Posts: 17,473
Re: The Thracians and their place in history


For varna, look into the Wiki-link, [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_Necropolis"]Varna Necropolis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame], no single word about the Thracians. For the Thracians itself read, [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians"]Thracians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame].

1500 BC is the estimated, earliest time of Thracian ethnogenesis.
beorna is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > Ancient History

Tags
place, thracians



Search tags for this page
Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Thracians okamido Ancient History 36 January 17th, 2018 02:43 PM
How do Kings and Emperors become that in the first place!? lokariototal General History 14 September 21st, 2016 06:39 PM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.