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Old November 24th, 2010, 07:26 AM   #51
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Re: The Thracians and their place in history


Werent they often also called the Dacians or is that another tribe of the area in Thrace? Also didnt they use the Falcatta which could split a man from head to groin That is sadly all the knowledge i have of them.

But great thread really enjoyed reading it.
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Old November 24th, 2010, 07:28 AM   #52

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Re: The Thracians and their place in history


I don't at all claim or see some ancient roots of the bulgars, i don't really think that even the most nationalistic bulgarians actually are doing something like that.
It is perfectly know when bulgars showed up in Europe, and when they formed countries, one north of Black Sea, other South of Danube another on Volga river.

Thracians are of course different from bulgars, in fact i don't think we can find many similiarities between the two ethnicities, apart from a few traditions that according to some date back to thracian times, and were practiced by thracians bulgarians in my opinion have little if none at all in common with the thracians.

I myself am not a fan of ancient period, so i know little about the thracians, ancient greeks and roman empire. Im more interested in medieval history.
Anna i believe your well aware of the professor Alexander Fol's work, he himself was a great thracologist with a lot of contribution and knowleadge in thracology. Now Valeria Fol is countinuing his researches on thracians.
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Old November 24th, 2010, 07:54 AM   #53

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Re: The Thracians and their place in history


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Originally Posted by sturm View Post
I myself am not a fan of ancient period, so i know little about the thracians, ancient greeks and roman empire. Im more interested in medieval history.
Boooo!!!!
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Old November 24th, 2010, 08:04 AM   #54

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Re: The Thracians and their place in history


Quote:
Originally Posted by sturm View Post
I don't at all claim or see some ancient roots of the bulgars, i don't really think that even the most nationalistic bulgarians actually are doing something like that.
It is perfectly know when bulgars showed up in Europe, and when they formed countries, one north of Black Sea, other South of Danube another on Volga river.

Thracians are of course different from bulgars, in fact i don't think we can find many similiarities between the two ethnicities, apart from a few traditions that according to some date back to thracian times, and were practiced by thracians bulgarians in my opinion have little if none at all in common with the thracians.

I myself am not a fan of ancient period, so i know little about the thracians, ancient greeks and roman empire. Im more interested in medieval history.
Anna i believe your well aware of the professor Alexander Fol's work, he himself was a great thracologist with a lot of contribution and knowleadge in thracology. Now Valeria Fol is countinuing his researches on thracians.
Yes, Fol is my idol. The hypothesis I put on here is his actually, Marazov and Penkova were more of supporters. Fol and Penkova led my classes in the Culturology, I went with Penkova to sites and couple of conferences, she is good too, but she is more into the popularizing the theory, that to creating it, it was created by Fol, and I suspect based at least in part on Karanovo. I know Marazov from couple if lectures, but read his books, so my knowledge of his is only from his books, with the others is both studies and personal. I think the hypothesis is viable, but more research is needed. Kitov did more of showpieces - he went on the archeological sites with a buldozer and dug for the gusto, instead of putting years of work with a teaspoon and a toothbrush, as an archeologist with a conscience have to. Thanks to such "archeological" techniques the soil strata got all mixed up, now no one knows what is from when. Foll was the soul of the Bulgarian Thracology, he involved the Germans, got financing for the digs...in Drama it was known that the Bulgarian side could buy only the toilet paper for the digs, no more. I don't know what is going to happen now, I cross my fingers for Valeria Fol, the Bulgarian Thracology needs money to do real research, not a treasure-hunt. By the way I read here one article in the "National Geographic' that Bulgaria has become the European Mexico - any collector with money can buy on the black market Thracian artifacts, makes me want to strangle someone with my own bare hands. Deterioration of the science of archeology, that's what is that. Just before I left Bulgaria in 2001 there was this big case about a dentist in some village who found an artifact representing Medusa, the gorgon - it was a textbook description, but some guys from the New Sofia university started arguing that the guy made it himself with his dentist machine /so they can sell it/...Fol and Marazov were arguing that no one could made such a false artifact without the profound knowledge in Thracology /on the funny side, Fol said "if this guy is so good to make such an artifact he knows more that we do, we have to hire him!"/. I think they didn't win though and the Gorgon was sold. This is what the situation is, when we need every bit we can lay our hands on to work out if this hypotheses is right, or not. My heart hurts when I talk about that.
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Old November 24th, 2010, 08:13 AM   #55

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Re: The Thracians and their place in history


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Originally Posted by Ballista View Post
Werent they often also called the Dacians or is that another tribe of the area in Thrace? Also didnt they use the Falcatta which could split a man from head to groin That is sadly all the knowledge i have of them.

But great thread really enjoyed reading it.
I personally defend the theory that the Thracians and Dacians are actually one culture, that's why I call them Thracian-Dacians. Of course, they were falling in tribes and stuff, but essencially it was one big cultural pool. I don't know though the archeological sites in Romania, I just starting to look for info about them, what I saw was in Bulgaria. One example of the connection - Zalmoxis /Herodotus talks about him/ was a Getae, was accepted as the only true god by the Dacians [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zalmoxis"]Zalmoxis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame] , but had his counterpart in the Thracian Zagreus, I will talk about this later. Thracian-Dacians were a cultural community, and I need to find more about what is researched in Romania, so I can form an opinion about the parallels bewteen them.

Last edited by Anna James; November 24th, 2010 at 06:06 PM.
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Old November 24th, 2010, 08:30 AM   #56

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Re: The Thracians and their place in history


Quote:
Originally Posted by sturm View Post
I don't at all claim or see some ancient roots of the bulgars, i don't really think that even the most nationalistic bulgarians actually are doing something like that.
It is perfectly know when bulgars showed up in Europe, and when they formed countries, one north of Black Sea, other South of Danube another on Volga river.

Thracians are of course different from bulgars, in fact i don't think we can find many similiarities between the two ethnicities, apart from a few traditions that according to some date back to thracian times, and were practiced by thracians bulgarians in my opinion have little if none at all in common with the
Of course I'm not saying something so outrageous like the modern Bulgarians date from 7000 BC, I didn't lost my mind I believe...
Thracians and Bulgarians and the Slavs were ethnically and culturally different, they met each other on the way, exchanged info and skills, intermarried, melt their cultures together are all cultures do, as different people and different cultures do. I'm just into how much of the Thracians survived, how it's mixed with what else from the others, I like the hues and the shades, and the colours that made what we have now. I'm more in culture, folk culture, sociology if you will, history if religion and thoughts, and try to follow the flow of cultures. Fol used to say "You can't give dates about ancient history, something like "the beggining of 6 millenium BC", or "the 7-6 millenuim BC" is good enough for a culturologist", and I think he was quite right...he more you go back in time, the more conservative and slow changing the cultures are, and the more insecure the dates are, so...I probably sound awful messy and unorganized, but cultures are messy. Documents come with dates, cultures come with customs, art, habits...you can't really date that, you can only feel it.
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Old November 24th, 2010, 09:11 AM   #57

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Re: The Thracians and their place in history


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What my saying about the Celts has to do with the Thracians? You want to construct a relation between 7000 BC and 1000 BC, unimportant if there were several different cultures, different waves of migrations and others. you ae speaking of Thracians even if perhaps indo-europeans didn't exist. It is hard to believe that indo-european Thracians existed before Indo-europeans and even several thousands of years before the origin of other indo-european nations or linguistic families. Italicans exist since 1500-1200 BC, Celts since 800-500 BC, Germanics since 600-400 BC , Slavs since 200-400 AD and Thracians since 7000 BC? hard to believe.
Well, the old cultures don't simply vanish when the new appear, they intermarry and assimilate, and I like to trace the cultural influences the old culture has on a new one. I didn't say that the Thracians existed before the Indo-Europeans, I said that they were part of those Indo-Europeans /according to the sources I cited and the theories I bring about/, they may have come about in the same time and even influenced each other /I would go with the Hiero Gamos in the Thracian culture and the Feast of Beltain in Celts and in Gaelic culture, this feast used to have orgiastic elements, it's a hierogamic in substance; also the walking through fire for purification in the Beltair Feast as a part of it is an ancient rite, in Bulgaria it exist, probably from Thracian time, till now, and was Bulgarized and Christianized depending on the time, I will talk about this later/. I stated this several times, and I don't understand why you think that I trace my personal roots to the prehistory...you misunderstood me, or you simplified my statement. I'm talking about cultural continuation, don't take it so literally like I'm saying that my grand.....father 7 millenia ago came to Bulgaria especially to sire me.
Whatever the reason is, let's turn a clean sheet.I will say it again.
I'm talking about the Fol-Marazov-Penkova's theory that the Ancient Thracians may have been a part of a bigger Thracian-Pelasgian /Mycenean/ cultural pool, that they may have come in Europe with other Indo-Europeans, going from Crete north breaking later in groups like the Thracians and the Myceneans.
I think we may be talking on different languages here, because you are talking historically documented sources, I'm talking prehistory, archeology, and customs. Then, you are talking ethicity and nations, I'm talking cultural pools. Then you talk about different cultures being separated one from another in time, I see them as a flow one in another. We probably have to work out some common lingo so we talk about the same thing.
Only please, for Pit's sake, don't simplify my statements, and don't put words in my mouth that I didn't even intend to think, let alone to say. If you are not sure what I'm saying, ask me so I can iron it down. Besides we met on other threads and I think by now you now that I'm relatively sane, so I don't think it's fair to compare what I mean with FYROM's tricks on history,/ with which I disagree/, and if I caught myself doing something similar I would hospitalize myself.

Last edited by Anna James; November 24th, 2010 at 08:50 PM.
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Old November 24th, 2010, 09:58 AM   #58

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Re: The Thracians and their place in history


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You want to construct a relation between 7000 BC and 1000 BC, unimportant if there were several different cultures, different waves of migrations and others.
Unimportant, you say? I disagree. The cultural relation, connection, whatever you want to call it between the different cultures, different ways of migrations is all what I'm talking about. I don't equal a culture with nation, let alone with ethnicity. Culture is broader, people borrow it, and leave it after themselves, culture changes, enriches, creates and I'm after that process. So, that is what matters to me, I'm talking about what you consider unimportant. I think that the theory I'm talking about slides very well with your map even /give or take a millenia, Fol would say it's OK for a culturologist/, I'm not arguing about a date, but about a flow.
I think I stated this several times. Next time, if I'm misunderstood about it I'm going to write it with capital letters.
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Old November 24th, 2010, 04:11 PM   #59

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Re: The Thracians and their place in history


Before going to Homer, I want to say something about another ritual that I might have originated with the Thracians, and a variation of it with the Celts, and is still performed in Bulgaria, Northern Greece, Scotland, Ireland and the Isle of Man. This is the ritual of the Bulgarian "Nestinari", the Greek "Anastinari", and the "Feast of Beltane" in the UK and Ireland.
I will start from the end to the beginning, from the modern day to the past, because, AFAIK, there is no archeological evidence that the Thracians performed it, so I will start searching for the roots of it.
"Nestinari" is a ritual involving walking over smoldering live coals in a tranced, exalted state, carrying an icon, on only one day of the year - the Day of Constantin and Elena of the Orthodox Chritian callendar, in several villages in the Strandja Mountain in Bulgaria.Here is a link with a video of it
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBhdlX5bGEw"]YouTube - Bulgaria The Golden Traditions - NESTINARI LIVE- The unique Fire phenomenon part 1[/ame] .
"Anastinari" is pretty much the same thing, /only I'm not sure if the participants work out an exalted state/, that is performed on the same day in 5 villages in Northern Greece. Here a link about it http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9801/05/fir...ers/index.html
The "Feast of Beltain" is a variation of the said 2 rituals, in which a fire was build and people walked through it for purification, performed on the "cross-quarter day" that marks the middle between the spring equinox and the summer solstice. It was persistant till 1950s and still performed in some places. Here some links on it
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beltane"]Beltane - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
http://www.wicca.com/celtic/akasha/beltane.htm
http://www.cyberwitch.com/wychwood/Temple/beltane.htm
http://herbalmusings.com/beltane.htm
http://www.chalicecentre.net/beltaine.htm
http://www.sinfin.net/meditation/beltane.html
http://www.tylwythteg.com/newsletter/newsletter2.html
Now, this is the idea I will present - an ancient ritual involving purification with fire was brought in Europe by a Indo-Europeans that found themselves in Europe, went to the Balkans, formed an Thracian-Pelasgian /Myceneaen/ cultural pool and later split to Mycenaean and Thracian branch /btw, I don't like the word "Pelasgian" which actually means "Myceneaen", but this was the way the authors of the theory, Fol-Marazov-Penkova put is and i don't have the right to change it while presenting this theory/.
If we compare the traits of the ritual in it's surviving forms we will see that:
1. All of them are performed in a special day of the year - 5-7 May for the Feast of Beltain and 21 May for the Day of Konstantin and Elena. Selecting a day that is or close to the "close-quarter day" shows that the day was regarded as carrying a special meaning - the first day of the new year, which is still preserved today in 1 of May - the traditional first day of the summer in Ireland, Scotland and the Isle of Man.
2. All of them are in a kernel purification rituals involving fire /an ancient notion, went later in the rituals of the Persians and the cult of Ahura Mazda/.
In fact, they are 3 variation of the same ritual, shared by whoever brought it about. The "Nestinari" and "Anastinari" were Christianised, but never really excepted by the Orthodox Chritianity, tolerated but /especially in "Anastinary" case/ disliked. The "Feast of Beltain" was never accepted by the Christian Church in modern UK and Ireland, and I remember reading some quite fiery remarks against it.
I also think that the "Nestinari" tradition in Bulgaria was strengthened when the Bulgars come around, because they already had it /coming from a related tradition/, and therefore slid easy in the already build in Thracian time mold. I would say that "nestinari" is both Thracian and Old Bulgar's tradition. Why do I think that? Because it exists also in Greece, - the "Anestinari" tradition. As I said before, traditions like that don't get absorbed just because people lived close by, otherwise all the Balkans would have it, not only these 2 places. I believe that if it was only Old Bulgar tradition, it would'n exist in Greece, only in Bulgaria. It's existence in Greece therefore must had come from different time, Thracian and Myceanean time.
The "feast of Beltain" is also a Hiero Gamus, /see post 37/ because it had a "licentious" tradition, the young people danced around the May Poll /a tall poll decorated with flowers, the counterpart of the decorated stick that is used in the Koledari ritual in Bulgaria on Christmas/, and love games and more were encouraged /the Sacred Marriage, but for everyone, to promote fertility, came from the notion of the Holly Passion among the Celts/.
How come those traditions are still preserved, even though in different forms? I think this is related to the human psychology, and has something to do with the Archetypes of Jung. Here a link http://www.iloveulove.com/psychology...archetypes.htm
Basically and in a very simplified form the archetypes are the cultural DNA we have and it gives us certain predisposition to react to something, feel a need of something, and this is a shared on a cultural level and in some cases on a all-human level.
So, in my view, the hierogamic and the fire-purification rituals became part of the psyche for the people who carried the traditions in Europe and they tried to preserve them because they needed them, in a sublimated form, in whatever form was possible. That's why they are so hard to exterminate - the Feast of Beltain was fought againts tooth and nail by the Christian Church and survived up to now. There is even a modern-paganism revival, which for me shows not only the eccentric behavior of certain individuals, but a real, deep, unsatisfied needs and longing in the human soul, the need to fulfill the archetype /an extensive reading of Jung can answer in more detailed way questions about this part of my post/.
In this Jung's view, the Hiero Gamus is a part of the archetype called "Divine Couple", and promises fulfilment, integration of the two, and the power of creation coming from this intergration. The fire-purification responds to the archetype called "The Child" that promises a new beginning, for which one has to be cleansed, therefore the ritual that cleanses and brings the new beginning /It's very significant that all 3 fire-purification rituals i described are done on or around the day that was the 1st day of summer, the new year, the beginning day for the ancient cultures/.

Last edited by Anna James; November 24th, 2010 at 09:09 PM.
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Old November 24th, 2010, 09:01 PM   #60

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Re: The Thracians and their place in history


beorna, since i have the sense that I can't get to you successfully enough the theory of cultural pools and stuff I decided to post here couple of paragraphs by Alexander Fol, I hope this will make is more clear.
"...I don't see any reason to give an advantage to the migrational theory about the formation of the Indo-European community in South-Eastern Europe, I take into consideration the biulding of the contact informational space in the 3rd and the 2nd millenium BC. The continuity of the historical process ensures the originating of the cultural -language communities independently of the internal rearrengements and migrations in the most southern part of Euro-Asia. Their consolidation in their future territories is inseperable from the political structures in the Trojan and Mycenaean koine. In suchlike circumstances, in the 2nd half of the second millenium BC, among the dynastic families and aristocratic circlesit's elaborated the conceptual-terminological language apparatus, which is not parceled imported merchandise..."
"The Thracian Dionisus" Alexander Fol, Summary
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