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Old July 6th, 2014, 06:47 PM   #901
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Originally Posted by EmperorTigerstar View Post
To be a one of the many thorns of the bush of Balkan border disputes.
Absolutely concise and to the point
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Old July 6th, 2014, 11:57 PM   #902

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The history of Bulgaria spans from the first settlements on the lands of modern Bulgaria to its formation as a nation-state and includes the history of the Bulgarian people and their origin. The earliest human remains discovered on what is today Bulgaria date from 44,000 BC. Around 5000 BC, a sophisticated civilization already existed and produced some of the first pottery and jewelry in the world. After 3000 BC, the Thracians appeared on the Balkan peninsula. Around 500 BC, they formed the powerful Odrysian Kingdom, which subsequently declined and Thracian tribes fell under Macedonian, Celtic and Roman domination. This mixture of ancient peoples was assimilated by the Slavs, who permanently settled on the peninsula after 500 AD.

Meanwhile in 632 the Bulgars, originally from Central Asia, formed an independent state north of the Black sea that became known as Great Bulgaria under the leadership of Kubrat. Pressure from the Khazars led to the disintegration of Great Bulgaria in the second half of the 7th century. One of the Kubrat's successors, Asparukh, migrated with some of the Bulgar tribes to the area around the Danube delta, and subsequently conquered Scythia Minor and Moesia Inferior from the Byzantine Empire, expanding his new kingdom further into the Balkan Peninsula. A peace treaty with Byzantium in 681 and the establishment of a permanent Bulgarian capital at Pliska south of the Danube mark the beginning of the First Bulgarian Empire. The new state brought together Thracian remnants and Slavs under Bulgar rule, and a slow process of mutual assimilation began. In the following centuries Bulgaria established itself as a powerful empire, dominating the Balkans through its aggressive military traditions, which led to development of distinct ethnic identity. Its ethnically and culturally diverse people united under a common religion, language and alphabet which formed and preserved the Bulgarian national consciousness despite foreign invasions and influences.

Please be careful with the use of statements like:

"This fact from the speculation that today any real Thracians exist is night and day."

The above statement has been made already by some people on this forum in a different form, with which I do not necessarily agree:

"This fact from the speculation that today any real Greeks exist is night and day.."

The official records state:

"A peace treaty with Byzantium in 681 and the establishment of a permanent Bulgarian capital at Pliska south of the Danube mark the beginning of the First Bulgarian Empire." Please take note: with Byzantium.
To answer your question...of course Thracians weren't Greeks. The Greek presence from ancient era, through Byzantine period, til mainly 1900 is bssed on the 50 plus Greek colonies and refoundations in historical area of Thrace. From ancient times the were called as "Thrakioi Hellenes" or "Thrakiotes".

You can't give any real answer to what I asked you...what sources you have fro existence of a non Latinised or Hellenized Thracian substratum durng the Bulgar conquest. To make it more easy to you...there simply aren't any source. You can't find anything more than Bulgars, Slavs and Greeks...and of course later Vlachs and every barbaric tribe you can think of...like Cumans, Pechenegs etc...

And religion, language and alphabet was shared by a multitude of Slavs. Were they all Bulgarians?

Last edited by Psellos; July 7th, 2014 at 12:00 AM.
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Old July 7th, 2014, 03:11 AM   #903
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Originally Posted by Psellos View Post
To answer your question...of course Thracians weren't Greeks. The Greek presence from ancient era, through Byzantine period, til mainly 1900 is bssed on the 50 plus Greek colonies and refoundations in historical area of Thrace. From ancient times the were called as "Thrakioi Hellenes" or "Thrakiotes".

You can't give any real answer to what I asked you...what sources you have fro existence of a non Latinised or Hellenized Thracian substratum durng the Bulgar conquest. To make it more easy to you...there simply aren't any source. You can't find anything more than Bulgars, Slavs and Greeks...and of course later Vlachs and every barbaric tribe you can think of...like Cumans, Pechenegs etc...

And religion, language and alphabet was shared by a multitude of Slavs. Were they all Bulgarians?
How exactly did you make the Latinised Thracians = Greeks, boggles the mind.

I can of course refer you to the simplest existing records in Wikipedia:

"The history of Bulgaria spans from the first settlements on the lands of modern Bulgaria to its formation as a nation-state and includes the history of the Bulgarian people and their origin. The earliest human remains discovered on what is today Bulgaria date from 44,000 BC. Around 5000 BC, a sophisticated civilization already existed and produced some of the first pottery and jewelry in the world. After 3000 BC, the Thracians appeared on the Balkan peninsula. Around 500 BC, they formed the powerful Odrysian Kingdom, which subsequently declined and Thracian tribes fell under Macedonian, Celtic and Roman domination. This mixture of ancient peoples was assimilated by the Slavs, who permanently settled on the peninsula after 500 AD.

Meanwhile in 632 the Bulgars, originally from Central Asia, formed an independent state north of the Black sea that became known as Great Bulgaria under the leadership of Kubrat. Pressure from the Khazars led to the disintegration of Great Bulgaria in the second half of the 7th century. One of the Kubrat's successors, Asparukh, migrated with some of the Bulgar tribes to the area around the Danube delta, and subsequently conquered Scythia Minor and Moesia Inferior from the Byzantine Empire, expanding his new kingdom further into the Balkan Peninsula. A peace treaty with Byzantium in 681 and the establishment of a permanent Bulgarian capital at Pliska south of the Danube mark the beginning of the First Bulgarian Empire. The new state brought together Thracian remnants and Slavs under Bulgar rule, and a slow process of mutual assimilation began. In the following centuries Bulgaria established itself as a powerful empire, dominating the Balkans through its aggressive military traditions, which led to development of distinct ethnic identity. Its ethnically and culturally diverse people united under a common religion, language and alphabet which formed and preserved the Bulgarian national consciousness despite foreign invasions and influences."

Where are you going with a question like: "And religion, language and alphabet was shared by a multitude of Slavs. Were they all Bulgarians?[/QUOTE]"

In more recent times:

The destruction of the Thracian Bulgarians in 1913 (in Bulgarian "Разорението на тракийските българи през 1913 година") was the extermination and ethnic cleansing of the Bulgarian population in the southern part of the region of Thrace during and shortly after the Second Balkan War. Carried out by the Ottoman army and Ottoman paramilitary forces, the areas involved included East Thrace and the Eastern Rhodope Mountains (today in the Edirne, Kırklareli and Tekirdağ provinces in Turkey, the Western Thrace region in Greece, as well as the southeastern part of Bulgarian Thrace).

These events were described by the Bulgarian academician Lyubomir Miletich in a 1918 book by the same name, and also by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in their 1914 report on the Balkan wars.
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Old July 7th, 2014, 04:14 AM   #904

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I thought you have a good level in english...where I imply that the "Latinised Thracians equals Greeks"? Thats the definition of nonsense if someone have written such thing.

What you fail to answer is the supposed existence and in a way voluntary assimilation of supposed "Thracian tribes" in 7-8th centuries with Bulgar and Slavs. There is not any source implying this.

I say that being in this position Thrace experiensed a devastation in rural area, and since the urban centers were mainly the Greek colonies there, that have survived to our time, the descedants of ancient Thracians then mostly latin speakers were exterminated or pushed in other directions, and the Vlachs of various areas should have been related to them. The Slavic and Bulgar element doesnt seem to have encountered any Thracians by identity
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Old July 7th, 2014, 04:19 AM   #905

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I thought you have a good level in english...where I imply that the "Latinised Thracians equals Greeks"? Thats the definition of nonsense if someone have written such thing.

What you fail to answer is the supposed existence and in a way voluntary assimilation of supposed "Thracian tribes" in 7-8th centuries with Bulgar and Slavs. There is not any source implying this.

I say that being in this position Thrace experiensed a devastation in rural area, and since the urban centers were mainly the Greek colonies there, that have survived to our time, the descedants of ancient Thracians then mostly latin speakers were exterminated or pushed in other directions, and the Vlachs of various areas should have been related to them. The Slavic and Bulgar element doesnt seem to have encountered any Thracians by identity or language.

As I said before, its great to search your country's past, but the Fyromian example is very indicative of what one shall never do... Bulgarians, I believe, don't need to make analogous mistakes with the vardarski cousins...

Last edited by Psellos; July 7th, 2014 at 04:22 AM.
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Old July 7th, 2014, 05:08 AM   #906
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Originally Posted by bilbil View Post
Hi will_bloom, long time you don't write?

Was the city of Plovdiv built by Philip 2 and had his monument?
Evmolpia...
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Old July 7th, 2014, 06:23 AM   #907
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Originally Posted by Psellos View Post
I thought you have a good level in english...where I imply that the "Latinised Thracians equals Greeks"? Thats the definition of nonsense if someone have written such thing.

What you fail to answer is the supposed existence and in a way voluntary assimilation of supposed "Thracian tribes" in 7-8th centuries with Bulgar and Slavs. There is not any source implying this.

I say that being in this position Thrace experiensed a devastation in rural area, and since the urban centers were mainly the Greek colonies there, that have survived to our time, the descedants of ancient Thracians then mostly latin speakers were exterminated or pushed in other directions, and the Vlachs of various areas should have been related to them. The Slavic and Bulgar element doesnt seem to have encountered any Thracians by identity or language.

As I said before, its great to search your country's past, but the Fyromian example is very indicative of what one shall never do... Bulgarians, I believe, don't need to make analogous mistakes with the vardarski cousins...
Dear Psellos,

Please accept my apologies for any mistakes. English is not my first or second language of preference and I take no offense when correction of my grammar or spelling is required. So, I agree with you, the word descedants should be spelled descendants

I find your claims of extermination of Thracians in the newly established Bulgaria similarly accurate. And I'm sure that the Bulgarian populace is very appreciative of your advise how to run their country and interpret their history.
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Old July 7th, 2014, 06:54 AM   #908

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The 4th century "Kyrou Anabasis" by Xenophon have pretty nice information about the Thracian things, after the Myriad's intefere in Odrysian things, on their way back.
Anabasis, by Xenophon
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Old January 1st, 2018, 04:36 PM   #909
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The first ever non-Greek/non-Macedonian kingdom in the Balkans was the Thracian Odryssian Kingdom:

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old January 1st, 2018, 05:11 PM   #910

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From my previous readings, Thracian history is much more ancient. They were in fact allies of the Trojans, who might hv been a kindred tribe of theirs, in the Trojan War, and sent troops to fight on the side of the Trojans. As also did the Phrygians.
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