Anna James

I want to post a chronology first, and in this way to provide structure for whatever discussion develops here. My information on the chronology is based on this site About.com: http://projectsx.dartmouth.edu/history/bronze_age/
and the book "People of the Earth - An Introduction to World Prehistory" by Brian M. Fagan (Little, Brown and Company, 1983). When I quote from this sources I will add the numbers /1/ or /2/, for the first or second source respectively.

Continental Greece:
20 000 BC - 8300 BC - Paleolithic - unbroken settlement line up to 3000 BC in Franchanthi Cave, Southern Greece
8300 - 6000 BC - Mesolithic
6800 - 6500 BC - Aceramic Neolithic - Thessaly- Agrissa, etc. domesticated plans and animals
6000 - 5300 BC - Early Neolithic - Proto Sesclo - in Nea Nikomedea, near Thessaloniki - wheat, barley, lentils, monochrome pottery
5300 - 4400 BC - Middle Neolithic - Sesklo culture in Thessaly - acropolis with a small town.
4300 - 3300 BC - Late Neolithic - Dimini culture in Thessaly - typical pottery
4300 - 3800 BC - Tsangli-Arapi Phase in Thessaly
3800 - 3300 BC - Otzaki-Dimini in Thessaly
3300 - 2500 BC - Final Neolithic -Rachmani culture in Thessaly

Archeological sequence in Crete:
5700 - 4000 BC - Level X-V - domesticated wheat, barley, animals, 2 figurines
4000 - 3700 BC - Level IV - 1 building, weaving implements
3700 - 3600 BC - Level III - Middle Neolithic - large buildings, same pottery like in Level X-V
3600 - 2800 BC - Levels II-I - Evans found 2 large buildings with hearths, under a later Minoan palace."... unparalleled in the other Neolithic phases at the site and unusual in later Minoan Crete. The better preserved (A) consists of at least fifteen rooms. The pottery is largely unchanged except for the appearance of "crusted" decoration at the very end of this phase, at more or less the same time as it appears in both Thessaly (Rachmani) and southern Greece (Final Neolithic). The first evidence for the use of metal artifacts consists of a copper axe found by Sir Arthur Evans in one of the buildings he excavated. There is now growing evidence for occupation at a number of other sites in Crete in the form of pottery from Phaistos, finds from numerous caves in west and central Crete (e.g. Platyvola, Trapeza), and a house at the site of Magasa...." /1/

Based on this archeological evidence I assume that the Final Neolithic in Thessaly and the Levels II-I in Crete were populated by the same people.

Bronze Age in Continental Greece:
3000 - 2650 BC - Eutresis Culture of Early Helladic - stone and bone objects, very rare metal ones,
2650 - 2200 BC - Korakou Culture of Early Helladic - widespread all over the Peloponese, Attica, Euboea, Beotia, Phocis, Locris, and the island of Lefkas. Also"...pottery typical of the Korakou culture is found in late Rachmani levels at Pefkakia (near Volos in Thessaly), in Early Minoan II levels at Knossos in Crete, and in Keros-Syros culture levels at sites such as Skarkos (Ios) and Ayia Irini (Keos) in the Cyclades...."/2/

Bronze Age in Crete:
3100/3000 - 2700/2650 BC - Early Minoan - contacts with the Cyclaic islands, and some loose contact with the Levant and Western Anatolia.
2700/2650 - 2150 BC - Early Minoan I - metal objects in quantity for first time, contacts with the Greek mainland and the Cyclades.
2150 - 2050/2000 BC - Early Minoan III - "tholoi" /circulat tombs/.

Mainland Greece:
2450/2400 - 2200/2150 - Lefkandi I - coastal Thessaly - possibly moved from Western Anatolia through the Ciclades in Greece.
2200/2150 - 2050/2000 BC - Turin Culture in the Argolid, directly above burned remains of the Korakou culture. it's considered that the Turin and Lefkandi cultures are being fused together, and is seen as transitional between the Korakou culture and the Middle Heladic one.
2050/2000 - 1550 BC - Middle Heladic period

Crete:
2050/2000 - 2000/1950 BC - Middle Minoan IA
2000/1950 - 1900-1850 - Middle Minoan IB
1900/1850 - 1750/1720 BC - Middle Minoan II A-B -
1750/1720 - 1700-1675 BC - if the explosion on Santorine may be dated c.a. 1625 BC - Middle Minoan III A-B - pictographic or hierogliphic script, all the way through MM IA;first real palaces at Knossos and Faistos, tholoi of Mesara type /found both in mainland Greece and on Crete/ - Middle Minoan IA; linear A
1550 - 1500 - Late Minoan IA - which may be moved back to 1675-1600 if the explosion on Santorini may be put c.a. 1625.
1450 - 1415 BC - /which now may be be moved to 1500-1450 BC/ - Late Minoan IB - Minoan influence spread around the Mediterranean.
1415 - 1340 BC - /now perhaps can be moved to 1450 - 1340 BC/ - Late Minoan II - Mycenean style ceramic. This is supposed to be the time when the Myceneans overrun the Minoans.
1340 - 1190 BC - Late Minoan IIIA - Minoan murals.

Mainland Greece:
1600 - 1500 BC - Shaft Graves at Myceneae - the Myceneans proper appear on the scene, kind of suddenly, and displayng all buch of gold and stuff that is considered unsupportable from the relatively poor cultures up to this point.

There are several theories about from were the Myceneans came /see my source /2/ about them/, but so far it's not proven that they may have come from somewhere out of Greece, so I consider them homegrown culture, on the base on the other cultures before them.
My conclusions are that the settlements in continental Greece and Crete show that one and the same culture was in the both areas from the Final Neolithic up to the Korakou Culture. If the Myceneans are homegrown in Greece culture, they came from the cultures before, including the Korakou one. Since after Korakou the archeological material from Grete and continental Greece diverge, I suppose that the cultures split then. Anyway, up to the end of Korakou, the same people lived both in Greece and Crete. Hence, the Myceneans are a branch of the Minoans. Moreover, the settlements in Crete start after those in mainland Greece, whatever that means. Now, it we are to call the Myceneans "Greek", then we have to call the Minoans "Greek" too, since they were connected.

okamido

Anna, take a look at this article and see how the conclusions may work in conjunction to what you provided.
The Mediterraneans | popular archaeology -

Anna James

This is a very interesting article, thank you very much, okamido!
If I understand it right, it states that the pre-Semitic people from 8000 BC Levant /the Fertile Crescent area/ spread around throughout the Aegean. 8000 BC in the chronology I put here would be the Mesolithic in continental Greece - /the Franchanthi Cave, that is located outside a large cave in SE Argolide, across a small village called Koliada/; then the first archeological remains in Crete started in 6500 BC with the Aceramic Neolithic; and if I'm not mistaken the first culture in the Cyclades was Saliagos - 4300-3700, on a small island between the islands of Paros and Antiparos /smack in the middle between Greece, Crete and Turkey/.

Detailed map of Greece


I found this map here http://www.alpha-omegaonline.com/Grece-Carte.gif
with, but it can be seen on the map on this link.Argolide is, if I'm not mistaken, the protruding piece of land from Mycenes /here in French/ through Epidaure in SE direction. On the map I see how close are the sites marked with the red dots - Cnossos in Crete, and Argolide in Greece, where somewhere the village of Koliada is with the Franchanthi Cave. Catal Huyuk is not on the map, it's close to the city of Konya, which I cannot copy a map of, but a map of which can be seen here http://www.alpha-omegaonline.com/Grece-Carte.gif
So, whoever they where, and no matter how we are going to call then, spread from here /the Fertile Crescent/ to Europe and so.



I found this map here http://malta.cc/where-is-malta/
So I can see how the said Neolithic people were coming from Turkey, populating the Argolide, the Cyclades, Crete, Southern Italy /the Etruscans/, and Malta, all in one graceful movement NW. Seems very plausible to me.
I will post a chronology of the prehistory of the Cyclades tomorrow, and will try to find one of Malta too, so we can compare the dating of the Neolithic remains in the said areas and see how they come together.

philhellene

Very good work Anna, are you collecting work for your doctoral dissertation?

Whenever or if ever you incorporate information from the end of the bronze age palace peoples and the migration of the so-called sea people please let me know what you find. I find that period very fascinating. And anything you can find on Hittites is golden, most under-rated ancient empire IMO.

Anna James

No, philhelene, no such luck...I'm just a lowly Substitute Teacher /my Masters' is in Education, minor in Geography, and I did 2 years in Culturology, so I use a little bit from all in order to pay some bills/, and read history for fun. I have like 6 classes to get in order to get my Teaching Endorsement in History, and then I will see what I'm going to do with my life. I would like to go for a doctorate, but...will see.
If I come upon stuff like the one you mentioned I will keep you posted, is would be my pleasure.
By the "end of the bronze age palace people" do you mean the Minoans and their Palace period?
Thank you for your high estimation, btw.

philhellene

Good luck with that, education is a noble institution. My father, aunt, and sister are teachers, and I work in a school as an IT tech. And stop being so modest, you are a high caliber scholar.

As a matter of fact, yes! The Minoans are another interesting bronze age peoples. Some scholars have noted that the bronze age kingdoms had a palace based economy/culture that violently ended around the same era. Partially, they think, because of those damn sea people!

Anna James

This is a truly high estimation, I will try to live up to it!
On the Minoans this site Minoans - Timeline and Description of the Minoans gives great sources, most of which are net-accessible.
And this book, here on this site, About.com: http://projectsx.dartmouth.edu/history/bronze_age/ which I used for my post, has fantastic info on the Palatial Period in Crete, lessons 11-16 are for the period, and talk about everything - architecture, religion, alphabets, you name it, it's extremely rich in info.

avon

(Looking good, Anna. )

Anna James

Thank you, avon, for watching over me!

I'm going to post a short chronology of the Cycladic Islands, from the Neolitic to the Bronze eras. It's based on About.com: http://projectsx.dartmouth.edu/history/bronze_age/
4430 - 3700 - Saliagos culture - the only excavated site is the one on the Saliagos island, which is located between the island Paros and Antiparos. Biuldings with rectangular rooms, pottery, stone artifacts, plant, animal and fish remains, emmer wheat, marble vases. There were found fish bones with very large size, but no fish hooks, or nets. The site is contemporary with Middle Neolithic and Late Neolithic on mainland Greece. The closest ceramic analogues come from Anatolia.
3300 - 3200 - Kephala culture - located on the NW tip of the island of Keos - it has settlement and a cemetery. Small buildigs, rectangular rooms, marble vessels, clay pots, early terracota figurines. Contemporary with the Final Neolithic on Mainland Greece - Attica, Athens, Thorikos, Kollonna in Aegina.
3100/3000 - 2650 - Grotta Pellos - the islands of Lakkoudes, Pelos, Plastiras, Kampos. Came directly from the Kephala culture. Insised bottles, from the type found on Crete; tombs, marble vessels and figurines, copper wire, necklace of silver beads. Contemporary with the Final Neolithic and Early Helladic culture in mainland Greece and Early Minoan I on Crete; contacts with both.
2650 - 2440/2400 - Keros-Syros culture on the islands of Keos and Ios, Melos, Skarkos. Fine pottery, tombs, marble figurines, stone vases. An impressive amount of metal artifacts - tweezers, daggers, fish hooks. Contacts with mainland Greece and Crete.
2450/2400 - 2200/2150 BC - "Kastri Group" aka "Lefkandi I" - on the island of Syros; called like that because of the small "kastra" - fortified citadel with 50 m. diameter, build on a hilltop. The metalwork shows parallels with Anatolia, and the type of bronze used is found only in Troy II; also found a precious silver diadem. Connections with troyIII, Euboea, Beotia, Eastern Attica. Suddenly abandoned, the reason are unknown.
2200/2150 - 2050/2000 BC - Early Cycladic III - there were found no human settlements in the following 100-150 years.
2050/2000 - 1900/1850 BC - the island of Phylokopi culture - Middle Cycladic I aka Early Cycladic III B - rectangular blocks of rooms, rock cut tombs, parallels with Euboea of the Korakou culture and in Laconia. Marble vessels were in decline. Little contact with Crete and western mainland Greece.
1750/1720 - 1490/1470 - Phylokopi II on the island of Melos - strong Minoan influence, but still strong Cycladic characteristics. Linear A was found on the island of Acrotiri.
1500 BC - in the island of Acrotiri were found murals, characteristic of the palatial murals in Knossos. However, 2 of the stylistic characteristics of those murals have no parallels in mainland Greece, nor in Crete. The culture is accepted to be the Phylokopi one.

Based on the said archeological evidence, my conclusions are as follows:
1. The Cycladic Islands were populated from 2 sides - Anatolia dn Mianland Greece, starting from 4430 BC.
2. During the period 3300 - 2650 BC there were 2 directly connected cultures, or shall we say one developing culture on the cyclades, well connected with both mainland Greece and the island of Crete.
3. C.a. 2150 BC a flourishing culture based on the island of Syros suddenly abandoned the small compact citadel and it's connections with Troy III, Euboea, and Beotia, and vanished somewhere for an unknown to us reason.

beorna

"Based on this archeological evidence I assume that the Final Neolithic in Thessaly and the Levels II-I in Crete were populated by the same people."

Can you show me, why?

"There are several theories about from were the Myceneans came ...but so far it's not proven that they may have come from somewhere out of Greece, so I consider them homegrown culture, on the base on the other cultures before them."

If that's your conclusion, can you explain, why greek is an indo-european language? and can you explain, why Minoan seems to be not an indo-european language?

"My conclusions are that the settlements in continental Greece and Crete show that one and the same culture was in the both areas from the Final Neolithic up to the Korakou Culture. If the Myceneans are homegrown in Greece culture, they came from the cultures before, including the Korakou one. Since after Korakou the archeological material from Grete and continental Greece diverge, I suppose that the cultures split then. Anyway, up to the end of Korakou, the same people lived both in Greece and Crete. Hence, the Myceneans are a branch of the Minoans. Moreover, the settlements in Crete start after those in mainland Greece, whatever that means."

There are much layers of destruction at the end of Korakou culture, e.g. lerna and tyrins. They are usually combined with an indo-european migration. The minoan culture originated around 3100 BC with FM I, you wrote in your first posting, that pottery of level III and of II-I is related to those of X-V. So how could Korakou split into Minoan and Mycenian culture? I all go back to neolithic, when did indo-europeans came?

"Now, it we are to call the Myceneans "Greek", then we have to call the Minoans "Greek" too, since they were connected."

If you are correct, then all cultures since 6000 BC can be called Greek. The term greek is combined with an ethnos. If you use it for Minoans or older groups, you imply that there is an common ethnic identity or even the same ethnicity. Because Greeks are Indo-Europeans, so the neolithic age must be a indo-european age as well. But as we see at Etruscans and others, those Little Asiian, mediterranian ethnics appear as especially not Indo-european. How can you explain this?