Richard Stanbery

I believe they would to this very day, if it were not for the legal problems that might ensue from it?

Hee Hee Thats right. Somebody actually said it.
But I dont have good sense anyway. Im a Saxon, remember?

sylla1

Typical Roman bronze depictions of naked Celtic warriors, in Berlin (above) ...
... and the famous "Dying Celt" of the Museo Capitolino (Rome), circa late III century BC.

(Histories, II; XXVIII; V-VIII)

Therefore, the rational Polybios gave us no less than three explanations to apologetically explain the atypical and crushing Roman defeat at against the same enemies under the same consul and his colleague C. Atilius Regulus (KIA), both battles in Etruria (DXXIX AUC / 225-224 BC):

- Their "formidable appearance" (i.e. causing fear to their enemies)

- Their "proud confidence in themselves" (i.e. a courageous machismo display)

- Their fighting efficiency at the ground "overgrown with brambles".

This ritual nudity from the Gaulish warriors (at least partial) was reported also at Cannae by Titus Livius: (Ab Urbe Condita, XXII;XLVI)

And also from the Galatians fighting a century later (like the famous "Dying Celt" shown above); interestingly, in most (if not all) these instances the warriors were described as mercenaries.

Needless to say, this ritual nudity has been utterly exaggerated in history and fiction to this very day; e.g. the Picts (who BTW were not Celtic!) are often depicted in that way, potentializing his famous and (equally exaggerated) ritual tattoos & body-painting.

Davidius

I'm with Pixi666 on this one. The 'civilised' Greeks and Romans loved to belittle and insult their enemies, usually by exaggerating their cultural differences and social customs. They were also terrible snobs eg. referring to the Britons as Brittunculi (nasty, little Britons), from the Vindolanda tablets, even when they had been in Britain for a considerable time. In refering to the Celts as naked they were suggesting that they were akin to animals and therefore morally inferior.

Salah

People doubt Roman accounts that mention Celts fighting naked because the Romans supposedly belittled all their enemies (which is not strictly true anyways).

Yet nobody doubts the existence of Celtic chieftains whose existence is known only from Classical historians; nobody doubts that battles like Telamon actually took place.

Double standards here.

Diviacus

I think that among all ancient authors some are more doubtful than others.

Caesar, who has been almost the only one to come into contact with the Gauls is more credible than other ones. And yet we know that, for personal and political reasons, he may have cheated a little.
As far as Polybius or Livy are concerned, when they recount facts they have not attended, we can be more suspicious.

Obviously, nobody doubts that Telamon battle actually took place.
But when Polybius writes:
“... to the Celts in the rear their trousers and cloaks afforded good protection, but to the naked men in front events turned out differently to what they had expected and caused them much discomfiture and distress.”
it’s difficult to understand how the Insubres and Boii, wearing their trousers and light cloaks, were much more protected than the naked warriors. There may be a misinterpretation.

Again, when Polybius recounts that “The swords of the Celts are such that only the first cut is dangerous; then the swords become bent…”, he may have misinterpreted the many bent swords which have been found in Celtic graves.

We have to take ancient texts into account. But we have to be careful about their interpretation.

sylla1

CJ Caesar was writing a political self-apology; rest assured that he did cheat a lot.

Polybios had one of the highest standards among ancient historians; even so, any data is inevitably as good as its primary source.

Any authors (ancient or modern) have always had their own agendas; that tautology naturally doesn't imply that their accounts couldn't be critically analyzed.

The evident idea of Polybios on the comparison of the dressed Insubres & Boii versus the naked Gaesatae was IMHO just that any dress was more protective than no dress, as the implicit rationale behind this eloquent bravery display (as explained in my previous post).

About Polybius on the Celtic swords, this is the translation from W.R. Paton: (Histories, II; XXXIII; V-VI) Polybius ? Histories ? Book*2 .

Translated in this way (i.e. implying just the superiority of the Roman thrusting over the Celtic slashing sword tactics), this passage makes much more sense than that ostensible mistranslation often quoted by experts on metallurgy like Thollander, Pleiner or Buchwald, i.e. like the one our Diviacus posted above.

Tennenbaum

I can't imagine going into battle with my jungle junk flapping around and exposed to sharp objects etc. I'll bet they at least wore thongs.

Richard Stanbery

My laugh of the day has been received! Thanks T.

LOL

sylla1

The graphics on the modern average temperature of Talamone (ancient Telamon) can be seen here Average Weather for Talamone, TO - Temperature and Precipitation.

That said, one of the reported (and frankly evident) goals of the ritual nudity of these warriors was to overtly display their bravery; hardly would have that goal been accomplished had the warriors shown any fear for the weather .

Tennenbaum

A kingdom lost for lack of Viagra!