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Old March 4th, 2011, 11:36 AM   #31

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Iíve read that because the early missionaries to the Picts believed that the Picts had originally come from Scythia they called their monastery St Andrews because they supposed St Andrew had converted Scythia.
Never heard that one before and it doesn't strike me as particularly convincing - especially as the oldest religious site in St Andrews is St Mary's on the Rock...
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So that would make St Andrew patron saint of the Picts and the Ukraine.
And the Russian Navy.........
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Has Scotland got a Pictish flag?
Not to my knowledge...
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Old March 7th, 2011, 07:18 AM   #32
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Never heard that one before and it doesn't strike me as particularly convincing - especially as the oldest religious site in St Andrews is St Mary's on the Rock...
The theory would be that a monk entering Pictland, around 750, would have first stayed at the Monastery at Jarrow where he would have read Bedeís piece about the Picts being originally from Scythia. This monk makes the connection between St Andrew and Scythia, rustles up some bones and tries to make a cult. Only when this cult is established is St Andrews built. Just a theory but it canít be any more ridiculous than how the English ended up with a Palestinian as Patron Saint.
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Old March 7th, 2011, 11:42 AM   #33

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The St Andrews story as I got it says that a Greek monk named Rule (or Regulus) was granted a vision in 345CE in which he was instructed to remove some of the relics of St Andrew, travel outside the Empire to the west and found a church to the saints memory. I'm further informed that in 347CE, he and his party landed at Muic Ros (now known as St Andrews).
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Old March 11th, 2011, 04:24 AM   #34

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I have a book here in front of me called ‘Early Peoples of Britain and Ireland an Encyclopedia’ by C. Snyder which is an unputdownable goldmine btw if anyone is interested in that sort of thing. There is an article in it by a Martin Carver on the Picts and I have typed up some bits of it here.

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For the next 1000 years the character of the Picts was dressed up in speculation and legend: they spoke a non-Indo-European language, where a relict Bronze-Age people, were immigrants from Scandinavia or Scythia, fought naked covered only in tattoos and lived underground, and their rulers descended through the female line. However in the last hundred years philological and archaeological studies have drawn a very different picture……..

Some of the Pictish monuments carry inscriptions in ogham, from which it has been deduced that Pictish was a member of the P-Celtic group of languages (Brythonic). The distribution pattern of the symbols is paralleled by certain P-Celtic placenames, notably those with a prefix pit-………

The latest monuments, such as those of the Tarbat peninsula, are among the highest artistic achievements anywhere in Europe in around AD 800.…….

Historically the Picts are now seen as Celtic peoples analogous to Britons and Scots, speaking a P-Celtic dialect and ruled by kings descended through the male line. There is no reason to regard them as any more eccentric than their contemporaries……

Archeologically, the stone lined burials and standing stones imply prehistoric roots and continuity of occupation in a zone between the firths of Moray and Forth……..

Their distinctive names and symbols fall out of use during the ninth century, probably through the increasing political success of Scottish leaders (rather than their hostility) in the battle for territory with the Norse. Although the current name of the kingdom is Scotland, the culture and experiences of the Picts underpin the history of over half of the Scottish landmass and descendents
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Old March 11th, 2011, 04:28 AM   #35

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Click the image to open in full size.
I hope Angus McBride doesn't mind me posting this.
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Old March 11th, 2011, 04:31 AM   #36

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Very impressive carving
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Old March 11th, 2011, 08:59 AM   #37

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Some of the Pictish monuments carry inscriptions in ogham, from which it has been deduced that Pictish was a member of the P-Celtic group of languages (Brythonic).


Bede stated that there were four languages of Britain, with Pictish and British two distinctive languages that were not mutually intelligible. Anyone who spoke with them, whether from Ireland or England, needed a translator. When you consider how Irish and Scots Gaelic stayed mutually intelligible for a thousand years after their political separation, the Pictish transformation from a British dialect to a language in its own right does not seem plausible. The Picts did use Ogham; but, until we know how to translate their stones, we can hardly say that they did not have an alphabet of their own.

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Archeologically, the stone lined burials and standing stones imply prehistoric roots and continuity of occupation in a zone between the firths of Moray and Forth


Archeologically, the brochs and duns across the rest of the country imply exactly the opposite.
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Old March 11th, 2011, 09:20 AM   #38

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I think this question, and many other questions in ancient history, try to uncover who the 'indigenous' people of a place. I'm not sure this is a possible, or indeed fruitful exercise. Isn't this idea more an artefact of how we think of modern day society as joined up and multicultural, and the past, particularly antiquity, as the opposite of that, when in reality there is a plethora of evidence suggesting the contrary?
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Old March 13th, 2011, 12:53 PM   #39

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Bede stated that there were four languages of Britain, with Pictish and British two distinctive languages that were not mutually intelligible. Anyone who spoke with them, whether from Ireland or England, needed a translator. When you consider how Irish and Scots Gaelic stayed mutually intelligible for a thousand years after their political separation, the Pictish transformation from a British dialect to a language in its own right does not seem plausible. The Picts did use Ogham; but, until we know how to translate their stones, we can hardly say that they did not have an alphabet of their own.

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Archeologically, the brochs and duns across the rest of the country imply exactly the opposite.
Ok but is there anything else at all apart from Bede's reference? Is there place-name evidence or personal hsme evidence of any other language apart from Brythonic or Gaelic?
As for the Brochs aren't they accepted as an indigenous development, a natural progression from thick walled buildings first constructed around 800BC.
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Old March 13th, 2011, 01:25 PM   #40

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Bede stated that there were four languages of Britain, with Pictish and British two distinctive languages that were not mutually intelligible.
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This is what Bede actually said:- This island at present, following the number of the books in which the Divine law was written, contains five nations, the English, Britons, Scots, Picts, and Latins, each in its own peculiar dialect cultivating the sublime study of Divine truth. The Latin tongue is, by the study of the Scriptures, become common to all the rest
(from chapter 1, book 1 of his Ecclesiastic History)

That being said, there no identifiable evidence of any language other than Pictish, Gaelic and Norse.

The Brochs are as far as is known, indigenous (which is only to be accepted as they don't seem to exist outside Scotland).
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