Setting the Record straight - Irish Paganism - Page 2 - Historum

**General Michael Collins** · May 1st, 2011, 10:29 PM

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Originally Posted by Lady_Cassandra

I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed reading this. Nice essay!

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Originally Posted by Clemmie

Excellent essay, GMC. I 've always been interested in Leprachauns. It's always too easy to believe in commom misconceptions about religion or myths in ancient societies. Thanks for the essay.

I'm glad you like it

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In the interest of animating this thread a beyond the well deserved kudos it has received so far, I'll begin by raising a point or two which interested me. I wouldn't go so far as to say I have an issue with your position, but rather that some further discussion on these and any points raised by other members (hint) might be of interest.

I'd be happy to deal with these.

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1. "Christianity and Literacy were introduced to Ireland at the same time, by the same man."

Are you writing of Saint Patrick here? Because if that's the case, one of the authors which you cite as a source (P. W. Joyce) would seem to disagree with that statement, though he does say that before Patrick, the majority of Irish were pagan.

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Leaders of our early history know that there were Christians in Ireland before the time of St. Patrick; and they must have grown to be pretty numerous by the beginning of the fifth century : for in the year 431, as we are told by a writer who lived at the time Pope Celestine sent Palladius to the Scots [Irish] believing in Christ to be their bishop. Nevertheless the great body of the Irish people were pagan; but Palladius was not the man destined for their conversion. He landed on the coast of Wicklow; but after a short soujourn, during that time he visited some Christians scattered through that district, and founded three little churches, he was expelled by the chief of that place and died soon afterwards in Scotland.

- P.W. Joyce - A Concise History of Ireland (Pg 67, Chapter IX) 1903

So yes, there were Christians in Ireland before either Patrick or Palladius arrived (some sources say they are the same person

, I can't find the exact passage for that) but to our knowledge no one had introduced Christianity. Some even suppose High King Cormac mac Airt was a christian, and that was long before the arrival of Patrick. P.W. Joyce supposes there were many... I don't follow his reasoning. There were bound to be some Christians in Ireland, for trade brought all sorts in and generally speaking the Irish were tolerant religiously (see Bél). As for Palladius, perhaps he confirmed the faith of a village in Wicklow, but he did not introduce the faith to the vast majority of the people of Ireland.

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The laws, being wholly the production of pagans, needed some modification to reconcile them with the requirements of Christianity. St. Patrick having during seven or eight years of missionary work all over the country, as well as in the previous years of his bondage, learned in what respects the laws conflicted with his teaching and thwarted his efforts, desired, as well for the material welfare of the people as for the success of his mission, to have the laws amended. The most permanently and universally effective way in which this could be done was to have a simultaneous collection and revision of the laws decreed by a great assembly of the nation, and then to take care that the work should be actually performed by men imbued with the Christian spirit. Accordingly, "He requested the men of Erinn to come to one place to hold a conference with him. When they came to the conference the Gospel of Christ was preached to them all. . . . And when they saw Laeghaire and his druids overcome by the great science and miracles wrought in the presence of the men of Erinn, they bowed down in obedience to the will of God and Patrick, in the presence of every chief in Erinn. It was then that Dubhthach (pronounced Dhoovah) was ordered to exhibit the judgments and all the poetry (literature) of Erinn, and every law which prevailed amongst the men of Erinn, through the law of nature, and the law of seers, and in the judgments of the island of Erinn, and in the poets. Now the judgments of true nature which the Holy Spirit had spoken through the mouths of the brehons and just poets of the men of Erinn from the first occupation of the island down to the reception of the faith were all exhibited by Dubhthach to Patrick. What did not clash with the Word of God in the written law and in the New Testament, and with the consciences of believers, was confirmed in the laws of the brehons by the ecclesiastics and the chief men of Erinn; for the law of nature was quite right, except the faith and its obligations, and the harmony of the Church and the people

From The Brehon Laws by Laurence Ginnell, 1894 (THE SENCHUS MOR)

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The Catholic church itself seems to agree with this point:

2. "...the “Celtic Church”, which was Christian (and under the authority of Rome)..."

To what extent did the early Celtic Church acknowledge the primacy of Rome, given that it didn't adopt the Anglo-Roman Rite until the Synod of Cashel in 1172? It seems that in the early days, the Celtic Church was quite content to keep its own council, and that there was some definite resistance to accepting rule from Rome.

Yes, now, I probably shouldn't have used the term "Celtic Church", because it implies a stronger unity than was actually there. It is a term used to refer to the unique customs of Irish & British Christianity and general insular differences, rather than a nominally opposed Celtic church. It probably stems from the fact that most people see Roman & Celtic as diametrically opposed. The problem too, is that some Protestants during the reformation sought to make the "Celtic Church" out to be a Protestant church, as though it had split with Rome, which it did not. Patrick obtained permission from the Pope to preach to the Irish, and regardless of the Cultural customs it remained under the authority of Rome in that it never actually split, even if it did keep its own council.

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“One of the common misconceptions is that there was a ‘Roman Church’ to which the ‘Celtic’ was nationally opposed.”

Bede and the Church of the English, Patrick Wormald (2006)

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3. "I said above that Irish paganism does not fit the concept of modern religion, and that is because it was not really a religion, in the true sense of the word. There was no organized list of deities and there was no organized form of worship. It was more loose cultural superstition than religion."

Given the paucity of solid information we have about pagan Ireland, it seems to be a leap to make such broad statements. How can we be sure that "There was no organized list of deities and there was no organized form of worship." when we actually know nothing of this time directly, and what we do know was written by Christian monks, who it must be admitted had an interest in deploring the religion which had preceded them?

I don't think the early Irish Christians had an interest in deploring the Pagans... If anything, that kind of thing was the exception. They could easily have constructed a myth of "Human Sacrifice", but didn't. In any case, I can cite more quotes for you if you wish. But, yes, I feel you are correct to point out that all the points made are based on the information we do have... for example there could have been a moral code, but we don't have it, there could have been a list of deities, or an organized worship, but nothing we have makes reference to them.

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I want to reiterate that I don't really "have issues" with anything you've written General Michael Collins. Still, I think that a fine piece like this deserves a bit of discussion, so I sifted through it to bring a few topics forward.

I'm happy to answer them. It's of course, only a general overview... as always, for a better look there are books galore to read. However, seeing as most people don't have the time to digest volumes, a little introduction on a history website might do some good.

Recusant · May 2nd, 2011, 09:17 AM

Thank you for taking the time to expand on the points I raised. Your knowledge on this topic is much more extensive than mine, and I certainly appreciate the effort you put into sharing it with us all.

**Salah** · May 2nd, 2011, 09:18 AM

An extremely enlightening read, sir.

**General Michael Collins** · May 3rd, 2011, 08:30 AM

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Originally Posted by Recusant

Thank you for taking the time to expand on the points I raised. Your knowledge on this topic is much more extensive than mine, and I certainly appreciate the effort you put into sharing it with us all.

I'm more than happy to deal with them

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Originally Posted by Salah ad-Din

An extremely enlightening read, sir.

Glad you enjoyed it Sal, high praise coming from yourself, and much appreciated.