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Old July 5th, 2011, 11:17 AM   #1

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Were the Caledonians and Picts the same people?


I've encountered a number of contradictory claims on this subject.

Strabo and Tacitus attest to a dozen or so tribes living in what is now Scotland, who were described collectively as Caledones. The only two Caledonians to appear in written history are Calgacus, who commanded the Caledonian army at Mons Graupius in 83 CE, and Argentocoxus, who allied with Septimius Severus c. 210 CE. Another Caledonian, Uepogenus, is attested on an inscription dated to the 3rd Century.

All three of these names are Brythonic Celtic - "Calgacus" meaning "swordsman", while "argentos" means "silver", and "genus" meaning "born of..." In fact, any one of these names could easily be passed as the name of a continental Gaul or Galatian.

Now the Picts - I have read several claims about their language. I've read that their language is non-Celtic and unidentifiable, I've read that they spoke a Gaelic language similar to Irish Gaelic, and I've also read that they continued to use the Brythonic language of earlier centuries.

Were the Picts a separate people from the Caledonians? I believe there is a tradition that the Picts were expelled from Ireland and invaded Caledonia, establishing their first stronghold in the form of the Kingdom of Dal Riada. Perhaps the Brythonic Caledonians, overwhelmed by Severus' brutal victories in the early 3rd Century, succumbed to warbands of Irish raiders, who then established a ruling regime?

What do we know about the origins of the Picts, and their connection to the tribes the Romans identified as Caledones?
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Old July 6th, 2011, 10:49 AM   #2

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Originally Posted by Salah ad-Din View Post
Were the Picts a separate people from the Caledonians? I believe there is a tradition that the Picts were expelled from Ireland and invaded Caledonia, establishing their first stronghold in the form of the Kingdom of Dal Riada.
No Saalh, those were the Scotti. The Scotti were Iriish Gaels and they spoke Gaelic. There is a suggestion though that they were refugees from one of the innumerable inter-clan wars.
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Perhaps the Brythonic Caledonians, overwhelmed by Severus' brutal victories in the early 3rd Century, succumbed to warbands of Irish raiders, who then established a ruling regime?
That's just what the Scotti did - but originally they only held a small part of what is now Argyll.
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What do we know about the origins of the Picts, and their connection to the tribes the Romans identified as Caledones?
To put it bluntly, we know damn all, on the other hand we speculate plenty. My view is that they were the same people, but I must admit this is largely because no-one ever heard of Picts before Eumenius coined the name.
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Old July 6th, 2011, 11:01 AM   #3

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Dang Chookie, I had to wait an entire day for you to answer this. Some times I wonder why I keep you on staff..sheesh.
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Old July 6th, 2011, 11:02 AM   #4
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I think the way of it is the name picts is the name used for those known as the Caledonians earlier, and the term Caledonians is an umbrella term for the many peoples who lives in the area.
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Old July 6th, 2011, 11:05 AM   #5
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To put it bluntly, we know damn all, on the other hand we speculate plenty. My view is that they were the same people, but I must admit this is largely because no-one ever heard of Picts before Eumenius coined the name.
We've still not worked out if the painted people were painted or tattooed.
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Old July 6th, 2011, 11:39 AM   #6

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Dang Chookie, I had to wait an entire day for you to answer this. Some times I wonder why I keep you on staff..sheesh.
My wages didn't arrive till today - your accountant needs a wake-up call .
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Old July 6th, 2011, 12:03 PM   #7

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Where does the name "Pict" come from? I know the traditional theory is because of their tats, but could it be a Celtic word?

What do we know of the Pictones of Gaul?
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Old July 6th, 2011, 12:08 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Salah ad-Din View Post
Where does the name "Pict" come from? I know the traditional theory is because of their tats, but could it be a Celtic word?

What do we know of the Pictones of Gaul?
Do we have the names the peoples in Gaul gave themselves, or are the names we know the names the Greeks and Romans gave them?
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Old July 6th, 2011, 12:35 PM   #9

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salah ad-Din View Post
Where does the name "Pict" come from? I know the traditional theory is because of their tats, but could it be a Celtic word?

What do we know of the Pictones of Gaul?
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Originally Posted by The Alani Dragon Rising View Post
Do we have the names the peoples in Gaul gave themselves, or are the names we know the names the Greeks and Romans gave them?
You'll be sorrrrreeeee :-


http://www.historum.com/ancient-hist...ere-picts.html
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