Scipio in relation to Hannibal and Caesar - Page 3 - Historum

**pixi666** · July 13th, 2011, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasher

1. Hannibal
2. Caesar
3. Scipio

Gets my vote too.

Shadow Dragon · July 13th, 2011, 08:48 PM

1. Caesar
2. Scipio
3. Hannibal

I've always thought that Hannibal is a bit overrated. He is a tactical genius, but in the end, his strategy for defeating Rome ended in failure. And by spending all his time in Italy, he left Africa and Iberia more open to attack. Scipio on the other hand easily defeated all the other Carthaginian generals and destroyed the army left to protect the city itself. Then he forced Hannibal to fight him out in the open and beat him. Hannibal showed how to win battles. Scipio showed how to win wars.

But neither of them are as great as Caesar. He conquered Gaul, some of Britannia, defeated nearly all the other Roman generals, destroyed the kingdom of Pontus and ended an Egytian civil war. The things he did simply stand head and shoulders over most other ancient generals.

Gaius · July 13th, 2011, 10:10 PM

1. Caesar
2. Hannibal
3. Scipio

It seems farcical to rank Hannibal higher than the man who defeated him, but I believe he was a better strategist. Maybe not a better leader than Africanus, but a better general.

Cornelius · July 14th, 2011, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank81

Hannibal campaign in Italy is a history masterpiece on military, I would say the most studied and inspiring one (with the Macedonian ones).

The campaigns of Scipio were as impresssive as that of Caesar, but different, and less numerous. Scipio was a genius of tactics, even more imaginative than Caesar, but he was also a extremly brilliant strategist since his fulminant actions could shorten campaigns that could be far more long and harsh with other commanders.

The campaigns of Scipio Africanus were brilliant, yes, but nowhere near as brilliant as those of Caesar. No commander in ancient history showed such military genious as Caesar did in Gaul - no offense, but if you disagree with that you probably haven't read much about the Gallic Wars. The battle of Alesia alone is more impressive than Scipio's entire military lifework, never mind the entire Gallic campaign. But Caesar didn't only face Gauls; he faced the most formidable military machine of the ancient world, led by one of the greatest generals of antiquity: the Roman legions under Pompey the Great. Yet, outnumbered 1-2, Caesar defeated Pompey at Pharsalus - again, neither Scipio nor Hannibal achieved anything near as impressive as that. It doesn't end there, however. After Pharsalus, Caesar defeated Titus Labienus, another brilliant Roman general, in the field at Thapsus and Munda - and Caesar was always outnumbered. He was a master of siege warfare - his sieges of Avaricum and Alesia were absolutely brilliant, especially the circumvallation of Alesia. He was also a masterful engineer; his bridge across the Rhine was an unprecedented engineering achievement. But this is by no means all he achieved. As propraetor in the late 60s BC, Caesar campaigned against and defeated the Lusitani in Spain. As a cadet in 80 BC, he won the Civic Crown for outstanding bravery in the battle of Mitylene. Against overwhelming odds, he won the siege/battle of Alexandria in 47 BC. He defeated Pharnaces of Pontus at Zela in 45 BC. And the list goes on and on... Scipio and Hannibal were both brilliant, but nowhere near as brilliant as Caesar.

**Alcibiades** · July 14th, 2011, 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clement

I think Scipio was the best strategist among them. He gained the upper hand very quickly in his campaigns, and did not make any useless or hazardous move (his only little mystake occured in Spain were he let Hasdrubal go out of the peninsula and attack Italy).

You may be onto something there,clement.Strangely enough,I never thought in that way,but it does seem to make sense,IMO(although it has to be pointed out that Caesar was probable the best politican of those 3).
Alcibiades

**Alcibiades** · July 14th, 2011, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clement

Well as for Scipio, this is only the case because he didn't fight as many battles as Caesar. But when you see his achievements, they are pretty impressive too. He never showed any weakness on the battlefield and he utterly defeated one of the most formidable foe of Rome. He ranks as the finest commander of his era IMO ahead of Hannibal, Pyrrhus (though pyrrhus could have succeeded with more ressources), Fabius Maximus or Marcus Marcellus.

There is that to keep in mind,yes.After reading a bit more about 2nd Punic War,I tend to agree with your last statement,with allowing that Hannibal was a greater tactician and battlefield general.But in all other fields,I would say Scipio has the lead on him.
Alcibiades

**Alcibiades** · July 14th, 2011, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sargon of Akkad

Not only that, but Caesar had the end result of the hard lessons learned from Hannibal and the reforms of Marius.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ancient History Addict

I always thought Caesar somewhat overrated, especially consider the strength of the Roman army and other contemporary generals' achievement. Other than the Parthians, Rome nearly won all the major battles and wars against any enemy from 100BC until teutonic forest. Sulla, Lucullus, Pompey, Agrippa, Germanicus and even Bassus.

Some more good points,but as siomeone else would no doubt point out,too,Caesar also faced other Roman armie(often outnumbered),Though it's debatable of what quality they were comparing to Caesar's battle-hardened veterans.
Alcibiades

**Alcibiades** · July 14th, 2011, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pixi666

Gets my vote too.

Do I see that right?Pixi puts Scipio last??!!

Alcibiades

**Alcibiades** · July 14th, 2011, 02:49 AM

All in all,this is my opinion in what fields of war and leadership some of these 3 were the best.

Best tactician:Hannibal(but other 2 are also geniuses)

Best strategist:tied between Caesar and Scipio

Best politician:Caesar

Best battlefiled commander:Hannibal

Best besieger:Caesar

Who was best in logistics?

What do you think of this,guys?

Alcibiades

**clement** · July 14th, 2011, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alcibiades

You may be onto something there,clement.Strangely enough,I never thought in that way,but it does seem to make sense,IMO(although it has to be pointed out that Caesar was probable the best politican of those 3).
Alcibiades

Scipio was a poor politician and Hannibal wasn't one at all so yes, in this field Caesar wins hands down. Also don't forget than Caesar grew up in a very difficult context for him, as he had to deal with the wrath of Sulla, than the hostility of the conservative senators, so as a politician, he surely learnt to survive in this arena first, then to gamble, and he did it with great success.