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Old November 15th, 2007, 06:11 PM   #1

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Were the ancients greeks and romans really gay


Were the ancient greeks and romans really gay? Or was it just some popularity stunt by a gay guy back when gay was not so hip?

I just find it hard to believe.
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Old November 15th, 2007, 07:08 PM   #2

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Re: Were the ancients greeks and romans really gay


Believe it, ethnocentrists now have a hard time believing a lot about the past.

Homosexuality was not frowned upon in Greece. The Theban army was composed of a Sacred Band, battalions of men with male lovers on the battlefield with them. The thought was they would fight harder to save and impress the one they loved.

Remember, Alexander had male lovers.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Roman general and dictator, had many relationships with other males.

Julius Caesar was called the Queen of Bithnyia by his political enemies in Rome because of the time he spent in Anatolia with the King of Bithnyia when he was younger.

Believe it. Also, Alexander and Julius Caesar are two of the most worshiped men in history.

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Old November 15th, 2007, 08:36 PM   #3

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Re: Were the ancients greeks and romans really gay


I can't but think that the percentage of straight people in ancient times among the entire population was pretty close to what it is today. Why would it be any different?
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Old November 15th, 2007, 09:27 PM   #4

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Re: Were the ancients greeks and romans really gay


Percentage was the same, but they did not have the shame associated with it that we have today. Sexuality is a continuum. It is not defined by absolute colors, but shades of grey. People in the grey area could express those desires rather than repressing them, and coincidentally ending up humiliating themselves in the Minneapolis Airport restroom. Congratulations modern world, you've made made some awesome new taboos.
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Old November 16th, 2007, 06:40 PM   #5

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Re: Were the ancients greeks and romans really gay


What proof do we have that Alex, and Jules were gays

It is not like they had videotape, and some voyeur caught them. Or did they have undercover cops back then who waited our in the public bath houses and see if they can entrap someone.

What source says they are gay? Most of what we have about back then is the prose written by various scribes like jordanes, or herodotus, or plutarch

Can we really take their word? And how do we know their stories have not been twisted over these past 2000 years. That is what happens to every piece of information. As it gets past along, it always changes.
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Old November 16th, 2007, 06:55 PM   #6

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Re: Were the ancients greeks and romans really gay


Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyPerson14 View Post
Can we really take their word? And how do we know their stories have not been twisted over these past 2000 years. That is what happens to every piece of information. As it gets past along, it always changes.
This is a great question Jersey. This is why historians are constantly challenging the historical record...particularly the further back in history you go. Many different events have been shaped due to some sort of "tweaking". Nomad, I concur with Jersey...do we have any evidence to support whether Alexander and Caesar were actually gay?
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Old November 17th, 2007, 07:04 PM   #7

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Re: Were the ancients greeks and romans really gay


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Originally Posted by JerseyPerson14 View Post
What proof do we have that Alex, and Jules were gays

It is not like they had videotape, and some voyeur caught them. Or did they have undercover cops back then who waited our in the public bath houses and see if they can entrap someone.

What source says they are gay? Most of what we have about back then is the prose written by various scribes like jordanes, or herodotus, or plutarch

Can we really take their word? And how do we know their stories have not been twisted over these past 2000 years. That is what happens to every piece of information. As it gets past along, it always changes.
If anything, the stories have been twisted the other way. No documentaries or dramatized works (i.e. History Channel or HBO's "Rome") get into the bisexual aspect of Caesar's life, and "Alexander" was extremely controversial because it did address that issue. It's not the History Channel version, it's the historical one. (I don't think they like being called gays either.)

Suetonius's "Twelve Caesars" is basically the political equivalent of E! (The Entertainment Channel, or whatever it's called). Suetonius wrote all the juicy, personal details about the twelve. Also, they did not have laws against vices and taboos that we have today, so no, no undercover cops in the bathhouses. Senators in Rome feared the Festival of Bacchus because they believed they would be sodomized in the streets; remember, this is not the modern world.

Chroniclers like those you have listed are all we can go upon for the lives of these people, so if you wish to disregard their works and hold these men not to the values of their own time, but to those of our time, go ahead.
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Old November 20th, 2007, 07:36 AM   #8

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Re: Were the ancients greeks and romans really gay


whatever it is, Greeks do not like it. they do not like the idea that many great men in their history were sodomizers. Homosexuality is not confined to a certain culture but every society has/had homosexuals. In Ottoman times, guys who worked in Turkish Baths were male prostitutes and some important men in the government enjoyed a male body rather than a female one. or in China, i read that there were some male brothels whose taxes are the highest paid in the town and in Albanina and Persia, many long poems about the beauty of a young boy. it's just that Greeks carried this to their art, onto their crocks, pots...Alexander is very well known to be bisexual. his best friend was his lover and he not only enjoyed the beauty of east but eastern men.

the thing is that homosexuality was not like today at those times. i dont know, i dont think Alexander gathered some fairies and had a parade, or Julius Caesar asked the soldiers where they got those 'gorgeous' belts

they might have been gay, or not. it makes no different. and enjoying two sexes can not be that bad : )
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Old November 28th, 2007, 10:56 AM   #9

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Re: Were the ancients greeks and romans really gay


Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyPerson14 View Post
Can we really take their word? And how do we know their stories have not been twisted over these past 2000 years. That is what happens to every piece of information. As it gets past along, it always changes.
It never changes consistently, though. It would be fine if it was just one author but it's practically all of them.

Not to mention it's abundant in the art, the plays, the poetry, even in the graffiti of Roman times, such as that found in Pompeii.
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Old November 28th, 2007, 08:01 PM   #10

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Re: Were the ancients greeks and romans really gay


Quote:
Originally Posted by Afrasiyab View Post
whatever it is, Greeks do not like it. they do not like the idea that many great men in their history were sodomizers. Homosexuality is not confined to a certain culture but every society has/had homosexuals. In Ottoman times, guys who worked in Turkish Baths were male prostitutes and some important men in the government enjoyed a male body rather than a female one. or in China, i read that there were some male brothels whose taxes are the highest paid in the town and in Albanina and Persia, many long poems about the beauty of a young boy. it's just that Greeks carried this to their art, onto their crocks, pots...Alexander is very well known to be bisexual. his best friend was his lover and he not only enjoyed the beauty of east but eastern men.

the thing is that homosexuality was not like today at those times. i dont know, i dont think Alexander gathered some fairies and had a parade, or Julius Caesar asked the soldiers where they got those 'gorgeous' belts

they might have been gay, or not. it makes no different. and enjoying two sexes can not be that bad : )
LOL! NICE! no, men were seen as superior in many of the cultures mentioned, therefore it seemed natural to engage in sexual acts with one of the same dogma.
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