Originally Posted by Doru

I do feel a bit of hostility in your post, so let me make it obvious - i have most respect for your knowledge in this domain. By my challenge to present Pompey's reasons for abandoning the Senate, i was only considering the fact that you evidently got your facts better than me. But the point that you are making is incomplete.

First of all, "this is just another alternative version of the utterly apologetic millennia-long pro-Caesarian revisionist propaganda, so common all along Historum" - i'm ratter new on this forum, but "pro Caesarian revisionist propaganda"? My god man, you're talking like the poor lad is going for election tommorow. I didn't knew there is such a thing like a pro-Caesarian propaganda, or that people have such strong feelings on this matter. I do know however that history is wrighten by the victorious, so we should clearely pay atention not to atribute the man more credit than he deserve.

First of all, let's cleare up the view of the Senate, as a " balanced democracy". This is fare from it. These are people that slaughtered large number of roman citizens, patricians, that were put in power by the first roman general that attacked Rome. The fact that they expect anyone (Pompey, Caesar, even poor old Catilina) to proceed like a tyrant, and to limit the Senate's rights is because they have done it with great succes some years ago.

The fact that Sylla's "most trusted generals" cancel some of his laws, doesn't meen that they are not the same blood thirsty killers (Marius also had his own; he just came second) from the time of the last civil war.

Secondly, they stend for anything but democracy. They stend for limitation of the rights to citizenship only for the city of Rome, while Caesar, the tyrant, pushes for equal rights for all inhabitants of Italia. The Senate is dominated by a very dynamical conservatory radical faction ( how many senators stabed Caesar? was it more then 8 or 10 % of the senators? ) with great influence and great experience in political strifle.

"The Senate and the People of Rome" - unfortunately these two forces were separate, and in oposite sides. The Senate was in power in Rome for most of Cicero's consulate. It is so from feare of treason. Cicero conviced them they are all in danger of loosing their life (not without reason). But the unity is broken once the danger is eliminated. Mettelus Nepos refuses the right of Cicero to do his final speach at the end of the consulate, and that shows how weak his position has become.

The people, on the other hand, are not with the Senate at this time. After Catilina's deth, Crassus is retired, but Caesar - now praetor - threatens to prosecute Cattulus (not the poet, a senior senator, friend of Catto and oponent of Caesar; i hope i got his name right). He galvanises around him the populare party. When Cato tryes to veto Caesar's and Nepos' land apropriations reforms (that would reward Pompey's troops), the people go bananas, and beat the c___p out of old Cato (they actually do; he is saved by Murena - the consoul). Another law that didn't pass because of Cato's veto is a law for softening the debt situation of poor, broke land owners ( in order to gather the people's support of course ). So we can honestly say that the Senate and the People of Rome are not in the same boat right now (in fact this is the object of the crissis).

When Pompey sends his represantative - Mettelus Nepos - to Rome, the later finds that the Senate is not willing to push through Pompey's reforms. So he is compelled to work with Caesar, who convince him he is the only one who can help aproove the necessairy reforms. As it ends, he is unable to do that, and retires for a brief periode at his residence. More, the Senate declares Caesar and Nepos' activitys illegal, and prevents them to carry on their work. At this point a huge demonstration of simpaty (some say staged) for Caesar forced the Senate, fierfull of a mass riot, to reinstate Caesar in his functions.

At this point, Caesar's adversarys bring faulse witneses that involve Caesar in Catilina's conspiracy. But by now Caesar's support is so grate, that he enprison both accusars (one of them a Curius - a senator) and the questor Niger for exceeding his atributions. He also is able to humiliate King Juba in the Senate at this time. So great was his power at this moment, and so much support he has amongst the roman people.

So do not make the confusion that the Senate represents a "balanced democracy" at this time in Rome.

Also, Pompey does mistake after mistake in Rome. He is not suted for politics, so he backfires several times. He divorces Mucia, the sister of Mettelus Celer and Nepos and looses the support of this influential familly. They will of course join the oposite side (at this point - the Senate). Mettelus Celer will be the next Consule, so bad news for Pompey.

But then it gets worse. He wants to make an alliance with Cato, so he aproaches him in order to wed one of his relatives. But, quite a huge blunder, Cato refuses him. Not only that he refuses him, but he parades it, confident that Pompey is a wonna be tyrant and will crown himself king (sounding familliare?). In fact, after the triumph, Pompey is unable even to press through his appropriation reforms, and he is unable to fullfill his promisses to his soldier, very bad and humiliating position for the conqueror of Asia.

Crassus, at first oposed to Pompey, soon finds motives of complaint against the Senate. His financial initiatives (i don't quite remember what it was - something about grains and taxes; maybe sylla can help me) is rejected by the Senate (don't remember the reason why; jealousy, fear of Crassus, etc), so now he is being pretty froustrated.

It is at this point that Caesar comes back from Spain, breaking several laws and renouncing a triumph wich the Senate denied him (the trick was he was not permited to enter the city, and he wanted to run for consulate; no one could delegate someone to subscribe him for elections, so he had to renounce the triumph for consulship - as sylla said, the triumph was the dream of every roman citizen, so you can imagine what sacrifice Caesar made in order to establis this alliance) only to be in a position to put up togheter the alliance that seem so logical to some. He treated Pompey very carefull, flatering him (always a good choice with Pompey), not mentioning his exploits in Spain and convincing him he was the only one whou could help him in his planns. If Pompey would only support his election as consul. Pompey initialy distrusted Caesar, but after meeting him he agreed on the alliance. Caesar also had some small military succeses in Spain, enough to atract a few praises from Pompey, but not enough to make him jealous. Pompey even gaved Caesar a few military advices. The alliance was tightened by the bethroadal of Iulia, Caesar's daughter, to Pompey (that is - Cato's blunder).

The tricky part was atracting Crassus. He was brought to the alliance by the promiss of the aprooval of his financial initiatives in Asia (still, can't remember what those were).

The alliance between Caesar, Crassus and Pompey was of such a power that it totaly anihilated any oposition. Caesar's first consulship is a long list of laws aprooved in the absence of the second consul (Ahenobarbus if i remember corectly) who was bullyed in to staying home (not a very democratical procedure, but again, democracy had a whole nother meening back then). In my believe, rarely forces so great come togheter in an alliance, without having a commune ennemy. The outmanouverd Senate and its flawed politic provided that ennemy, without wich the Triumvirate couldn't exist.

In sted of balancing the forces allying themself with one or another force, the Senate alienated all of the 3 forces existent in Rome. That is why i believe the Triumvirate was not a logical outcome of the politic sceene in Rome, but an anomaly doomed to have a very short life (Crassus still was suspicious of Pompey and leave for Syria to counter the later's military fame; Pompey felt always better when suported by what the conservators - what he, a pleb noble, saw as the legitimity; and Caesar....well, Caesar had his own planns).