Western Wall Not Built by Herod, Archaeologists Find - Historum

Ed-M · November 23rd, 2011, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daily Mail UK

The man usually credited with building the compound known to Jews as the Temple Mount and to Muslims as the Noble Sanctuary is Herod, a Jewish ruler who died in 4 B.C....

But archaeologists with the Israel Antiquities Authority now say diggers have found coins underneath the massive foundation stones of the compound’s Western Wall that were stamped by a Roman proconsul 20 years after Herod’s death.

The four bronze coins were stamped around 17 A.D. by the Roman official Valerius Gratus.

Link: Coins found under Jerusalem's Western Wall hints that sacred site is even older than Herod | Mail Online

It appears the Roman Prefect did more than just appoint three high priests, one right after the other, the last being Caiaphas. Josephus' portrait of him as a do-nothing governor with an uneventful term is to me inaccurate.

**unclefred** · November 23rd, 2011, 03:59 PM

Simply based on that? Obviously Josephus didn't place the importance on it that you do.

Sokar Rostau · November 23rd, 2011, 07:25 PM

Err... do you know what the Western Wall is? It's not some insignificant pallisade...

**Clodius** · November 24th, 2011, 04:13 AM

Josephus tells us that, although Herod began construction of the Temple, his plans were so grandiose that the construction was not complete until the early 60s CE, during the reign of his grandson Herod Agrippa I (ironically only a few years before the whole structure would be torn down by the Romans). So it's perfectly easy to explain why coins stamped 20 years after Herod's death would be found under "Herod's" most ambitious building project.

EDIT - Incidentally, since the coins referred to were stamped 20 years after Herod's death, I don't understand the claim in the headline that this proves the Temple was older than Herod. Is that just the Daily Mail getting the story completely 100% wrong, as usual?

NonXNonExX · November 24th, 2011, 04:21 AM

No wonder all those prayers at the Western Wall have gone unanswered!

Nikator · November 24th, 2011, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodius

EDIT - Incidentally, since the coins referred to were stamped 20 years after Herod's death, I don't understand the claim in the headline that this proves the Temple was older than Herod. Is that just the Daily Mail getting the story completely 100% wrong, as usual?

I was wondering the exact same thing...

Ed-M · November 24th, 2011, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unclefred

Simply based on that? Obviously Josephus didn't place the importance on it that you do.

This is the Western Wall -- sacred to all Jews -- we are talking about. The one that supported the Jews-only precinct of the Temple Mount and the Temple itself. Before the find, we had no idea that there was a possibility of the goyyim and the money of the goyyim "polluting" the site.

Prior to this, was it not assumed by scholars all and sundry that Herod the Great had completed that part of the Temple Mount? One would think it had top priority.

Ed-M · November 24th, 2011, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodius

Josephus tells us that, although Herod began construction of the Temple, his plans were so grandiose that the construction was not complete until the early 60s CE, during the reign of his grandson Herod Agrippa I (ironically only a few years before the whole structure would be torn down by the Romans). So it's perfectly easy to explain why coins stamped 20 years after Herod's death would be found under "Herod's" most ambitious building project.

EDIT - Incidentally, since the coins referred to were stamped 20 years after Herod's death, I don't understand the claim in the headline that this proves the Temple was older than Herod. Is that just the Daily Mail getting the story completely 100% wrong, as usual?

Yes, it's a clear case of the Daily Mail getting the headline wrong. Per the content of the article, the wall and the platform behind it are clearly younger than Herod (the Great).

**unclefred** · November 24th, 2011, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed-M

This is the Western Wall -- sacred to all Jews -- we are talking about. The one that supported the Jews-only precinct of the Temple Mount and the Temple itself. Before the find, we had no idea that there was a possibility of the goyyim and the money of the goyyim "polluting" the site.

Prior to this, was it not assumed by scholars all and sundry that Herod the Great had completed that part of the Temple Mount? One would think it had top priority.

I see what you're getting at. I don't really see it as some 'evidence' against Josephus though. I was mislead by the headline too.

**Clodius** · November 24th, 2011, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed-M

This is the Western Wall -- sacred to all Jews -- we are talking about. The one that supported the Jews-only precinct of the Temple Mount and the Temple itself. Before the find, we had no idea that there was a possibility of the goyyim and the money of the goyyim "polluting" the site.

Prior to this, was it not assumed by scholars all and sundry that Herod the Great had completed that part of the Temple Mount? One would think it had top priority.

I think the Wall has only really gained that significance since the Temple was destroyed. After all, when the Temple was standing, it was just a temple wall!!! What makes it sacred is that it's all that remains of the "house of God".

As for the money, it would be interesting to see if it's aniconic (i.e., whether or not it has the emperor's head on it). Sometimes the Romans minted aniconic coins in Israel, out of deference to local feeling, whereas other times they couldn't be bothered and just issued their usual iconic coins! If these coins carry an image of the emperor's head, then it means that technically Herod's Temple, for all the time it stood, was polluted by the presence of graven images in its foundations!

EDIT - I just looked on the article, but the coins are so badly worn I can't tell if they have the emperor's head on them or not!