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Old May 8th, 2012, 05:38 PM   #1

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New end date for the fall of the roman empire


Is it 476? 1204? 1453? 1461? how about 1476! Today my byzantine history professor brought up an extremely obscure sucessor state (even more so than trebizond!) when discussing the last pieces of the empire that fell after 1453 to the ottomans. The Principality of Theodoro, a small segment of the crimea that was lost by trebizond in the 14th century was governed the byzantine noble Gabras Family until its fall to the ottomans in 1476! This is really an interesting addition to the vast canon of the history of the Roman empire and one that is extremely overlooked. Also a neat bookend to the fall of the western empire a millennium prior.
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Old May 8th, 2012, 05:44 PM   #2

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I think your professor is grasping at straws.
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Old May 8th, 2012, 05:55 PM   #3
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I think your professor is grasping at straws.
Hahahaha
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Old May 8th, 2012, 10:29 PM   #4

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Well, this interpretation is a bit forced: the fact that a Byzantine noble family keeps the control on a region doesn't mean that the Empire is still there.

I could make an example drawing a parallel with the British Empire: in this case the Royal Family is still the same, London is still there and the United Kingdom is still existing, but no one would sustain that the British Empire is still existing ...
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Old May 9th, 2012, 01:02 AM   #5

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Strictly speaking the Roman Empire is alive and kicking. Firstly in the terms of religion, where christianity preservbes the language and indeed many social concepts, behaviours, and traditions from the past. Also there's a tiny religious province in Greece that descends from Roman times.
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Old May 9th, 2012, 02:15 AM   #6

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For my part, the fall of Constantinople to the Turks in 1453. The term "Byzantine" is a modern day contrivance with no historical value. It was literally the Eastern half of the empire, and they themselves believed themselves Romans, as did their enemies in the East.

But once the capital city falls, the empire is done.

An interesting point, none-the-less.
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Old May 9th, 2012, 06:15 AM   #7

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Didn't the Russians often term Moscow the "Third Rome" after the fall of the Byzantine Empire to the Turks?

They were attempting to draw a link from Rome, to Constantinople, to Moscow.
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Old May 9th, 2012, 06:19 AM   #8

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Didn't the Russians often term Moscow the "Third Rome" after the fall of the Byzantine Empire to the Turks?

They were attempting to draw a link from Rome, to Constantinople, to Moscow.
I heard from my professor that this is was an idea propagated by one monk after the fall of Constantinople, but was never mentioned by the Russian Imperial family as official doctrine.
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Old May 9th, 2012, 06:21 AM   #9

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Originally Posted by AlpinLuke View Post
Well, this interpretation is a bit forced: the fact that a Byzantine noble family keeps the control on a region doesn't mean that the Empire is still there.

I could make an example drawing a parallel with the British Empire: in this case the Royal Family is still the same, London is still there and the United Kingdom is still existing, but no one would sustain that the British Empire is still existing ...
The British Empire does still exist though, the falkland islands, st helena and other dependencies are still ruled in the name of the queen.
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Old May 9th, 2012, 06:23 AM   #10

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I heard from my professor that this is was an idea propagated by one monk after the fall of Constantinople, but was never mentioned by the Russian Imperial family as official doctrine.
Ahh...thanks
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