Shaddam IV

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Originally Posted by charles brough There was never any "universal female led society" and I frankly doubt that Gimbutas ever stated there was. It is easy to pick at what seem like little contradictions into a misinterpreted version of the concept. The social theory consensus is that there never existed a matriarchal society, but the matrilineal descent and the universal existence of female dieties in both ancient mythology and evidenced by archeology is too significant to be objectively dismissed.

I don't think Gimbutas herself ever claimed "universal female led society" existed, but her very poorly supported theories about prehistoric European matriarchal societies did provide abundant fodder for Feminists social theories and fringe scholarship supporting this myth of some universal Goddess worshiping female lead society that never existed.

Neither societies that practice matrilineal descent nor universal existence of female deities inherently provides support for Gimbutas theory or others like it.

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Since the women were the gatherers, it is reasonable to propose they were the ones who developed agriculture, not the hunters, the men. Why would agriculture become dominant if it were not for the rise in population putting too much pressure on the hunters who had to be contend with less abundant game? So a religion of the hunter would have been in decline. Babies, being born by females, in a polygamous society, agricultural fertility would have been associated with the female. There was no such thing as a marriage, no such thing as a "father." The diminished male role would have meant the society was led by female public opinion. It determined what was "politically correct."

Gathering is not the same as agriculture, while I'm am sure that women's roles as gathers in pre-agricultural societies was key in the development of agriculture, it does not mean that women would become the dominate gender in the society. I see a lot of assumptions and speculation but very little evidence or sound reasoning to support the conclusion that early prehistoric agricultural societies would have been inclined to be led or politically/socially dominated by women. There is simply is inefficient archaeological evidence to support such a theory, which explains why it has found little to no support in mainstream scholarship.

Rasta

The truth probably lies somewhere in-between the two extremes of strict patriarchy and strict matriarchy. It is true that women in the bronze age routinely had more prestigious positions in religion than the iron age.

It is true that women in tribal societies tend to be the ones who do agriculture. It is true that men tended to fight and hunt, and thus were frequently away from the tribe for extended periods.

Thus it does not seem to be a stretch that women had positions of more social influence at times in the past.

Shaddam IV

I am in no way denying that in some early and ancient societies that women did not wield great social and religious power, there are plenty of examples that clearly show some societies were far more egalitarian or less cultural/socially rigid when it came to gender roles and rules in their society. One need only look at Celtic societies where women had much greater freedom and social mobility then say women in Roman or Persian society; they owned property, were leaders, and often fought beside their men.

Rasta

Yes, thank you. I wanted to say egalitarian but I couldn't remember the term.

charles brough

I think they are one and the same Tree, don't you? God had said to avoid the fruit of the Tree (because it represented fertility) but Eve (representing fertility and the goddess) picked it and gave it to Adam who secumbed and ate it. That was giving into the feminine, to fertility and the goddess age, so he is shown as being angry. The goddess was shown to be powerless. God took them both, including Eve, away, banished them and held control over them from then on.

Since people then actually believed in those gods, this myth was an excellent way to explain how the change occurred from the one religion to the other.

charles brough

Eve picking fruit from the tree to feed Adam was the old way. The male God ordering them not to do it, made it a "sin" (an offense to Him). They picked and ate it anyway, thus returning power to the old, fertility goddess concept. He then banished them from the Garden and from its eternal life. From then on they had to obey only Him as their only hope for eternal life.

That is what the myth represented to people finally when it was adopted by the Judaic tribes and became its final version. What helped make it so enduring was that the snake and tree symbol appears as far back as Gobekli Tepe some eleven thousand years ago.

laketahoejwb

Shaddam

So to and much more were the Etruscan Woman.

Lake

laketahoejwb

Eve is not a godess or fertility godess. At this point in the story, she is just a friend of Adam so Adam won't be lonely.

After the "Original Sin" she became Adam's wife.

Lake

Mike McClure

But God tells them to be fruitful and multiply so there has to be more to original guilt then that.

Rasta

1. The garden of Eden story in Genesis derives from Babylonian mythology.

2. Babylonian mythology is basically a carbon copy of Sumerian mythology.

3. I'm fairly certain that if the Sumerians based their symbolism on an older oral tradition, they would not be thinking with modern Christian symbolism in mind.