SW412

I'm having trouble finding much information on this subject; is it correct to say Greek dialects were generally mutually intelligible, whereas Italian languages were separated into to two branches - Latino-Faliscan and Osco-Umbrian (with dialects within each being mutually intelligible, while cross-branch dialects were mutually UNintelligible)?

What variation could be seen amongst Greek dialects? What commonality could be seen amongst Latin and Oscan languages (ie, how easy would it be for the speaker of one to learn the other)? And would the speakers have noticed the similarities/common origins in their languages? What was it that caused the languages to separate from their common, root language?

Answers to *any* of these questions, are much appreciated

Arete

Well, Greek and Latin were both Indo-European, so they had those similarities in family branch.

I don't know about Latin, and the Italic dialects are a bit of a mystery to me.

As a new student of ancient Greek, I can affirm that Greek dialects were mutually intelligible. Homeric, Ionic, Attic, Doric and Aeolic could be understood when two speakers of different dialects spoke to one another (though of course, Homeric or Epic Greek is based on the language Homer used, which fits no one dialect and must be called its own-but the Greeks could understand "The Iliad" and "The Odyssey"). There would be differences and quirks-in word endings, meanings, and such-for example, in Attic Greek the definitive article (the) is ho (masculine), heh (feminine) and to (neuter). In Ionic Greek, those same forms mean he/she/it.

I think dialects occurred in the same way American English is different from that of the UK. Difference in region, city-state, time, etc. But I'm not an expert in that.

Midas

For ancient Greek I doubt that ALL dialects were mutually intelligible. Ok, in general Ionic, Doric speakers etc could understand each other, but I doubt Athenians would understand a word from Elean, which was Doric, but remarkably difficult to understand. The same goes for Pamphylian, which I again doubt that Athenians would understand. On the other hand Arcadians and Cypriots most probably understood it. Lesbian Aeolic must have been very difficult as well, enough to be called barbaric along with Elean.

Now, lets not get fooled by inscriptions. Sometimes, they don't even render the local dialect e.g like in Halicarnassos. For instance, I can read Cypriot and Griko newspapers with no difficulty, and in fact Cypriot newspapers are written in standard Greek. However, what if I end up in a village outside Limasol or a village in Salento? Trouble understanding I am telling you. I might have a trained Greek ear, but generally most standard Athenian Greek speakers would have great difficulties.

Now, when it comes to Latin and Faliscan... Personally, I say they were NOT different languages. I think we're being picky here, but I am not an expert in Latin either.

SW412

@Midas,

So, you believe, there were, at least, regional variations in the Greek language that would cause mutual unintelligibility amongst some, in ancient days? This is interesting, since Ancient Greek is often presented as a generally homogeneous language, with only minor variations.

Also, as for Latin and Faliscan, it's my understanding they're not classed as separate languages by most linguists, but as separate dialects of the same Latino-Faliscan language (whereas Osco-Umbrian is separated as another language - and both are separate branches of the Italic family).

Midas

Yes, there were regional variations. In general terms Greeks understood each other well, but distant or isolated cases could be difficult to handle.

Now, since I gave Elean as an example before, consider that the Athenians had a nightmare understanding them. However, the Megarians who the Athenians could understand, must have understood Elean without greater difficulty. So basically, just because a group of Greeks didn't understand a dialect, it doesn't mean that the neighbouring to that dialect Greeks didn't.


I am planning to demonstrate Elean and other weird dialects of Ancient Greek on this thread in the future, but a small sample below won't do any harm.

I am sure, that anyone that has studied classical Greek, would feel unfamiliar with the above sentence. Syncope, rhotarism and all kind of harshness collected in few words.




Well, you know how it goes... Just for the sake of debating and differentiation, some people will try to convince there was a Faliscan language, different than Latin. Osco-Umbrian is another language, still very close though.