Is the Paistos disk genuine? - Page 2 - Historum

sven.kriti · July 1st, 2012, 10:46 PM

[quote=MinoanGoddess;1105645]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sven.kriti

Then you need to translate it. Don't need you sarcasm! I can read Greek fine!

Since you ask for it:

English :Is the Phaistos Disc genuine?
Identical GR translation:
Greek: Ο δίσκος της Φαιστού, είναι γνήσιος;
; = Greek question mark!
In the Greek language, specially in writing, questions and answers may only differ by the question mark!

**Midas** · July 2nd, 2012, 03:56 AM

Fresh news people: Î˜Î± Î´Î¹Î±Î²Î¬ÏƒÎ¿Ï…Î¼Îµ Ï„Î¿Î½ Î”Î¯ÏƒÎºÎ¿ Ï„Î·Ï‚ Î¦Î±Î¹ÏƒÏ„Î¿Ï; | Î‘ÏÏ‡Î±Î¹Î¿Î»Î¿Î³Î¯Î± Online

It seems like Gareth Owens is close to give an answer to the content of the disc. Owens believes Minoans spoke an IE language, which I personally have doubts about, but nevertheless I am open to it (The language on the disc doesn't need to be the same language as the Linear A tablets). From earlier research, he believed that he found an IE word for mother in the disc. He has been using specially made computer programs combining mathematical algorithms and linguistic rules.

The article above is in Greek, but it informs that Owens made a statement that the disc might be soon deciphered.

**Midas** · July 2nd, 2012, 04:03 AM

Btw, it is worth to mention that John Coleman, Professor of Linguistics at Oxford University, is participating in the project.

sven.kriti · July 2nd, 2012, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midas

Btw, it is worth to mention that John Coleman, Professor of Linguistics at Oxford University, is participating in the project.

I had contact with Owens for 10 years, although I never met him, he is a teacher of the polytechnical scool in Irakleio. All the time he has claimed to be very close to the the solution! My problem is:
If we put all the hieroglyphs, the Axe and the Disk, together we end up with less that 50 hieroglyphic signs. Nobody could possibly claim that the hieroglyphs on the disk or the axe fit into a phonetic system such as the Greek or the Latin alphabet. The systems we know need only 22 to 35 characters. Linear B has little more than 100 characters. It is therefore simple arithmetic to conclude that no syllable system consisting of only 45 characters would be able to convey any intelligent message. For idiomatic pictogram systems we all know it takes thousands of characters, ref. Chinese and Japanese! For this reason I have always been sceptical to both the axe and the disk!
Owens has more webssites, this one is new to me. I will read through the GR text. For a British, Owens speaks good GR. He lived in Irakleio I beleive 20 - 30 years. He has a friend in Norway, Bjarte Kaldhoel, they are working along the same lines, althoug they are not 100% in agreement!

**Midas** · July 2nd, 2012, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sven.kriti

If we put all the hieroglyphs, the Axe and the Disk, together we end up with less that 50 hieroglyphic signs. Nobody could possibly claim that the hieroglyphs on the disk or the axe fit into a phonetic system such as the Greek or the Latin alphabet. The systems we know need only 22 to 35 characters. Linear B has little more than 100 characters. It is therefore simple arithmetic to conclude that no syllable system consisting of only 45 characters would be able to convey any intelligent message. For idiomatic pictogram systems we all know it takes thousands of characters, ref. Chinese and Japanese! For this reason I have always been sceptical to both the axe and the disk!

I agree with this. Of course it might be that all symbols that the writing system had, might not be available to us. For example with 64 something symbols of Linear B, you can still do the job and write Greek. If we had 10 Linear B tablets instead of thousands, only a small amount of signs would be available to us.

In any case, Owens claims to understand 60% of the content. Lets see what he has to say and if his solution deciphers other hieroglyphic inscriptions. The later is the absolute proof of success in a decipherment process.

sven.kriti · July 2nd, 2012, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midas

I agree with this. Of course it might be that all symbols that the writing system had, might not be available to us. For example with 64 something symbols of Linear B, you can still do the job and write Greek. If we had 10 Linear B tablets instead of thousands, only a small amount of signs would be available to us.

In any case, Owens claims to understand 60% of the content. Lets see what he has to say and if his solution deciphers other hieroglyphic inscriptions. The later is the absolute proof of success in a decipherment process.

...He has been using specially made computer programs combining mathematical algorithms and linguistic rules.
....Similar methods were used by Stehen Roger Fisher, som 20 years ago, and se what he came up with: A Greek language older than the Mycanean
!!!!! He claims the disk is a warning of war!
You can find everything via Google.
I sincerely believe that it is not possible to decipher Linear A or the hieroglyphs with the available material!
For your information, Owens does not beleive the rock inscription in Norway are Lin. A.

**Midas** · July 2nd, 2012, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sven.kriti

I sincerely believe that it is not possible to decipher Linear A or the hieroglyphs with the available material!

I agree, unless the language belongs to a known group of languages with enough material for comparison. What is needed is a bilingual which, again, does not guarantee anything as proven by the eteo-Cypriot inscriptions. The task can be even harder if Linear A was used to write more than one language e.g "Minoan", Luwic (Lycian or Carian) and Greek.

sven.kriti · July 2nd, 2012, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midas

I agree, unless the language belongs to a known group of languages with enough material for comparison. What is needed is a bilingual which, again, does not guarantee anything as proven by the eteo-Cypriot inscriptions. The task can be even harder if Linear A was used to write more than one language e.g "Minoan", Luwic (Lycian or Carian) and Greek.

It was hard enough for Champolion with the Hieroglyphs, having the 3 lingual Rosetta stone at hand + thousands of papyrus rolls at hand!

fick · July 2nd, 2012, 06:42 AM

has anyone ever considered the possibility that its just 2 months worth of the captains log of an exploratory sail around the newly accessible "underworld" sea of rhadamanthys [aka the pelagos of atlas region of okeanos aka the moetic lake]. he could be simply reporting the important things [like aggressive/peaceful tribes and cities and resources etc] he encounters along the way.

being a bit of a sailor it translates well for me.

peace

sven.kriti · July 2nd, 2012, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MinoanGoddess

Ο δίσκος της Φαιστού, είναι γνήσιος;

First you post an article that indicating the Phaistos Disc is a Fake. Then you post a link in Greek questioning the Phaistos Disc is genuine? I did not know who you are because you do not indicate this is your article.

I read your article and it gave me a headache because it did not really make any sense. I gave references to dispute your theory. The most relevant one is that this artifact was found in an archaelogical dig by an archaeologist, it is very hard to prove this artifact is a fake. Second, many respected well known archaeologists such as deceased Spiridon Marinatos have proved beyond doubt the disc is authentic.

After pillaging in the late 19th and early 20th century, and some excavation in the late 19th century, Spyridon Marinatos responded to more pillaging in 1935 with further excavation of the site and, among other finds, discovered a gold ax and silver ax inscribed in Linear A ("I-DA-MA-TE," AR Zf 1 & 2), and a bronze ax inscribed with some signs from the Phaistos Disc syllabary (Marinatos 1935: 250-259). Marinatos assumes a context date of MM III (-LM I), but there was little to no pottery. Most scholars assume a date either contemporary with Neopalatial axes of similar type or with the Phaistos Disc (late Protopalatial).

Since most of the sign groups on the Phaistos Disc are short (mostly 3 and 4 signs long), it is tempting to regard the signs in the third column as one sign group and columns one and two containing two sign groups each, separated by a divider

(cf. the dotted vertical line that starts both sides of the Disc).

Arkalokhori Ax, drawing of inscription

The Arkalokhori Ax inscription In columns

(

)

Col. 1: 01-02-03
(04)
05-06Phaistos signs: 02-19-Face
|
39?-22?

(

)

Col. 2: 01-07
(04b)
01-03-08Phaistos signs: 02-Curved Branch
|

Impressed Sealing from Phaistos

The third document is an impressed sealing from Phaistos (MM II late), CMS II 5, no. 246, whose seal carried Phaistos sign 21.

Phaistos Disc

I made it quite clear that that some of the signs have also been found on the Arkalokori Axe. The bronze Arkalokori Axe is a second millennium BC Minoan votive double axe excavated by Spyridon Marinatos in1934 in the Arkalokori cave. It is inscribed with fifteen hieroglyphic signs. It has been suggested that these might be Linear A but Professor Glanville Price agrees with Louis Godart that “the characters on the axe are no more than a ‘pseudo-inscription’ engraved by an illiterate in uncomprehending imitation of authentic Linear A characters on other similar axes”. Consequently, if I believe the Disk I a fake, it will automatically follow for the Axe!
I have my house only 60 km from Irakleio so I was often in the museum until it closed for rebuilding 3 yeas ago. At the 2 last visits the Arkalokori Axe was not there. I asked the museum people and they came up with some funny excuse: "it had to be locked up in a case because it was so sensitive!"
If we put all the hieroglyphs, the Axe and the Disk, together we end up with less that 50 hieroglyphic signs. In what writing system would you place the 50 hieroglyphical signs, a syllabic system? A idiomatic pictogram systems?
If I had been a psychologist, I might well have started to dig into the motivation that could bring established scientists to carry out stunts of this nature. I am not, but I will do my best.
To be an archaeologist is one of the loneliest jobs I can think of. First you excavate carefully with very small tools, even brushes days and years without any guarantee that you will find something at all! If and when you find something you spend maybe more time to put it into a detailed system in form of a report. You end up with one of many books of reports on a shelf. Only skilled colleagues will ever be able to find out what it is all about! Many archaeologists must have a secret dream of acknowledgment and fame. Some of them, the younger ones may need it in order to get further. Other may have gotten frustrated to have found little or nothing and to observe colleagues making the find of all times just a few km away from his workplace! What is then more natural for the one with a little more skill and creative fantasy than to help speeding up the development!
Marinatos was a young man when he "found" the Axe, it is most certain that it gave him a push forward!The only solution to stop this discussion to everybody’s satisfaction is to carry out a «thermoluminescense test». This test will establish if the object was produced a hundred years ago or more than 3000 years ago! If the Disk is authentic, it also goes for the Axe and vice versa!
The museum refuses to do so. I suspect they already made it a long time ago! That explains!