Timaeus

Minoans rise to prominence seems to come around the of 2000 BC roughly.

The Phoenician site of Byblos has been settled since 6000 BC , while the city of Tyre has been in use since 2700 BC.

So my question is how much cultural diffusion occurred between these two civilizations ?

Minoans were an island Country and If I am not mistaken it has been shown that there was evidence of deforestation on ancient Crete. This leads me to believe the Phoenicians would have been a reasonable trade partner due to their natural resources of Cedar trees.


Trade between Phoenicia and others had to been going off for quite some time in the Mediterranean because cedars of Lebanon are found and dated to 3200 BC in Hierakonpolis Egypt.

The City of Byblos has also shown evidence of being destroyed and rebuilt several times around 2000 BC. This Coincidentally is around the same the the Minoans rise to prominence. Now I am by no means assuming these two went hand in hand but I would like others opinions on the matter. I simply cannot see how Phoenicians were considered the masters of the sea while at the same time I hear that the Minoans were as well masters of the sea.

Has anyone else noticed this or am I mistaken in my information?

markdienekes

The Minoans were a blend of two societies, Phoenician and Cretan. The Phoenicians arrived by ship and blended with the Cretans over a period of time, settling themselves, planting vineyards, olive groves and villas - essentially the Minoans were the children of them both, with many elements drawn from old Cretan society, but taking on the majority of Phoenician principles and rules.

Timaeus

Is there even evidence for vineyards on Crete? I know there is for at least storing the olive oil.
Regardless I think it was inevitable that there was much contact with ancient Crete and Phoenicia but if Crete was culturally similar with Phoenicia what evidence supports this?

markdienekes

Well, there's still the debate between Eastern influence or indigenous development, but recent archaeological discoveries have shed more light on the Phoenicians which includes what you've mentioned before in regards to the destruction of Byblos, and adds that Tyre and Sidon were virtually abaondoned at the time of the rise of the Minoan palace society. Once the Minoans fell, Tyre and Sidon came to life again.

Here's something to read on it you might find interesting (and which supports the Eastern influences, specifically the Phoenicians):

Minoans and Phoenicians Paper

Timaeus

That's definitely good evidence for a strong Phoenician influence but I wonder how much of their language is actually similar to linear A. From my understanding there isn't much early recorded writings in early Phoenician language .

Midas

Excuse me but can you please specify which archeological discoveries shed light on the Phoenicians? The whole Aegean (not just Crete) is more similar to western Anatolia, than anything else. If I post 10 pictures from Asia Minor and the Aegean you won't be able to tell what is from where.

The best contrast between Phoenician and Cretan cultures is shown in Cyprus, where Minoan influence gets strong while Phoenician colonization is being established in certain parts of the island.


Linear A does not record an IE (like Greek) nor a Semitic language (like Phoenician). I see much greater possibilities of it being part of a greater language group of the neolithic period, where Hurrian, Urartian and Hattic belonged to. This conclusion does not just come from the Linear A records we have , but also from the huge substratum of words that Greek has.




As for contacts of the two civilization, there's no doubt about it. They were the greatest thalassocracies of the Mediterranean. Phoenicians did settle in various parts of the Aegean. Their stay might not have been long, but nevertheless they made it.

markdienekes

You'll have to check through the sources listed in that paper, sadly that's all I've read on this...

Midas

I have seen that page before, but generally the mainstream academics studying the Aegean are critically against a Phoenician-Semitic origin of that civilization. It has been debated to death in the past (esp. during the 70s) but if we look at the very early (7th - 6th millenium B.C) settlements of the Cretan populations they root in a very different world than the one of the Phoenicians.

markdienekes

They're not trying to suggest that Cretan origins was started by the Phoenicians, but that around 2000 BC, the Phoenicians began to take an interest in the island due to the troubles at Byblos (being sacked by the Amorites twice) and looking for a new and safer place to live. If we go back to the 7th-6th millennium BC we'd be looking at Pelasgians whom the Phoenicians encountered when they first started trading with the island around 3000 BC?

Midas

Ah ok! Yes, although there are other places that had more significant settlements. It is noteworthy that Phoenicians are not mentioned amongst the people who lived in Crete by ancient authors. As for Pelasgians, there were one of the groups living in Crete. They are unrelated though to the Phoenicians and I would trace their homeland in Thessaly.