Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > Ancient History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Ancient History Ancient History Forum - Greece, Rome, Carthage, Egypt, Mesopotamia, and all other civilizations of antiquity, to include Prehistory and Archaeology discussions


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old October 8th, 2012, 11:05 AM   #121

Midas's Avatar
Γορδιεϝαις the Phrygian
 
Joined: Dec 2011
From: London, UK
Posts: 3,382
Blog Entries: 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlin View Post
First of all, it's an interesting position you have taken labeling me as a "chauvinist". It seems like you took an exception to what I added to this thread (quotes from E. Abbott's book), but that is not my problem.

And I agree with you. The ancient Hellenes were an ethnic mix of diverse races and tribes.
I appologise if I have been sharp, but I have been dealing with a lot of paranoia here lately.

I have written a lot of things here on the issue and it is as clear as it can get. My main point was to make clear that mainstream scholarship, does not stick to terms such as Pelasgians, Dryopes etc or what Ancient Greeks meant when they mentioned them (because it doesn't make sense). The proto-Indo-Europeans who brought the pre-proto-Greek dialect of IE to Greece, were not that many to change completely the local population. Yes, there are areas (e.g eastern Crete) that are more "IE" genetically than other areas, but, just like the Hittites (Nesites), those people were not a majority. The native populations changed their speech by time in the same way and the same reasons Hattians, Sumerians, Iberians and so on did. What linguists do today, is not to try to define "Who were the Pelasgians", but what kind of language(s) were spoken in Greece, before Greek, by examining the substratum words in Greek (which are many).

Cheers
Midas is offline  
Remove Ads
Old October 28th, 2012, 12:32 PM   #122

Midas's Avatar
Γορδιεϝαις the Phrygian
 
Joined: Dec 2011
From: London, UK
Posts: 3,382
Blog Entries: 4

I found a fantastic relic back from the early 20th century, regarding the pre-Greek language.

Apparetly an ancestor of mine, who was a history teacher in rebro university had a special interest in pre-Greeks. In a book called "Den Grekiska relionens historia" (The history of the Greek religion), the author Martin PN Nilsson writes amongst many things the following on the subject (this text below had been underlined by my great great aunt).

Quote:
Nowadays, the parallels with the Asia Minor religious practices are being stressed. However, there's linguistic evidence that point to the common origin of pre-Greek populations and the native populations of Asia Minor. This evidence is related only to the older Asia Minor. The Hittite language and origins are still not settled, but we should avoid any comparisons with their practices and language.
It is truly amazing that back in the 1920s the Swedish academia had a solid view on this issue. They even ruled out an IE origin of pre-Greek, by disconnecting the Hittites from the context, whose language had just been deciphered.
Midas is offline  
Old October 28th, 2012, 02:16 PM   #123

Yaun's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: May 2011
From: Macedonia, Eastern Roman Empire
Posts: 1,747

Interesting. I guess that "older Asia Minor" is equivalent to pre-IE Asia Minor?
Yaun is offline  
Old November 3rd, 2012, 08:35 AM   #124
Citizen
 
Joined: Dec 2011
From: Canada
Posts: 47

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midas View Post
I appologise if I have been sharp, but I have been dealing with a lot of paranoia here lately.

I have written a lot of things here on the issue and it is as clear as it can get. My main point was to make clear that mainstream scholarship, does not stick to terms such as Pelasgians, Dryopes etc or what Ancient Greeks meant when they mentioned them (because it doesn't make sense). The proto-Indo-Europeans who brought the pre-proto-Greek dialect of IE to Greece, were not that many to change completely the local population. Yes, there are areas (e.g eastern Crete) that are more "IE" genetically than other areas, but, just like the Hittites (Nesites), those people were not a majority. The native populations changed their speech by time in the same way and the same reasons Hattians, Sumerians, Iberians and so on did. What linguists do today, is not to try to define "Who were the Pelasgians", but what kind of language(s) were spoken in Greece, before Greek, by examining the substratum words in Greek (which are many).

Cheers

Fair enough.

What is your opinion on the following: since only 40% of ancient Greek words are Indo-European in origin, where did the other 60% of their vocabulary come from?

Sacnoth's Scriptorium: The Treasures of Greece: Myth Becomes History
Carlin is offline  
Old November 3rd, 2012, 11:06 AM   #125

Frank81's Avatar
Guanarteme
 
Joined: Feb 2010
From: Canary Islands-Spain
Posts: 2,548

Well, that stimation apparently comes from Anna Morpurgo Davies, and only from her. This stimation is repeated in the internet ad nauseam.

We need some more opinions in this subject.
Frank81 is offline  
Old November 3rd, 2012, 11:40 AM   #126

Midas's Avatar
Γορδιεϝαις the Phrygian
 
Joined: Dec 2011
From: London, UK
Posts: 3,382
Blog Entries: 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaun View Post
Interesting. I guess that "older Asia Minor" is equivalent to pre-IE Asia Minor?
Yes!
As you can read above, the author leaves the Hittites outside this theory, which directly implies to pre-IE Asia Minor.
Midas is offline  
Old November 3rd, 2012, 12:05 PM   #127

Midas's Avatar
Γορδιεϝαις the Phrygian
 
Joined: Dec 2011
From: London, UK
Posts: 3,382
Blog Entries: 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlin View Post
Fair enough.

What is your opinion on the following: since only 40% of ancient Greek words are Indo-European in origin, where did the other 60% of their vocabulary come from?

Sacnoth's Scriptorium: The Treasures of Greece: Myth Becomes History
First of all, thank you for bringing this up.

The first I will have to say (and that won't answer your question yet) is that you should take that with great caution. It is the first time I hear such a thing. I would rather reverse that numbers to 70-30 (IE - non-IE) and that could be an exhageration in favour of the non-IE part.

I live in a house where 4 languages are spoken. My wife is trying to learn Swedish and is not a native Greek speaker. Although English is the main source of her parallelism with Swedish, I am impressed how many Swedish words she compares to Greek in order to remember and those are such that not even I have thought of (a recent one being the verb for see in both languages is striking similar and IE).

To close the mathematical approximation before answering your question, a language that would have 60% non-IE words, would not have similar grammatical structure to German by any means, nor would it be a main sample in the Indo-European studies.

Now, if you read my previous posts, you will see that my point is that pre-Greek is non-IE, non-Semitic, non-Etruscan. To make things simple, I am convinced that the language or languages spoken in Greece in the neolithic period belongs to a long dead language group that is distantly related (having the same parent) to the North Caucasian languages. I have never before, seen so much evidence being brought forward as this. I receive updates from people in the field every week and every time I see a progress on this issue. Unfortunately, there are very few well rounded linguistics who posses deep knowledge of Indo-European, Semitic and Caucasian languages, so this kind of studies still need time. Nevertheless, it is the most mature approach I have seen so far and I fully support it, knowing many of its hazards. To summarize this, around 7000-6000 B.C in the Greek mainland, south eastern Balkans, Anatolia and Caucasus, people speak languages closely related to each other. This is very plausible considering the migrations of the early farmers to Europe.

I hope my answer was clear and straight to the point.

Last edited by Midas; November 3rd, 2012 at 01:01 PM.
Midas is offline  
Old November 8th, 2012, 01:11 PM   #128
Scholar
 
Joined: Feb 2009
From: Republic of Macedonia
Posts: 605

This post is continuation of discussion from here http://www.historum.com/ancient-hist...anguage-8.html page 8….16
Midi, as I can see, you always read only things you want to see? Have you ever read what Russians academicians and linguists had written? Well my friends, this site is Russian science on line ( http://rusnauka.narod.ru ) and here is link for HERITAGE AND VALUE OF THE ANCIENT SLAVS, read for yourself ,
http://rusnauka.narod.ru/lib/oldbuil.../fenix/gl4.htm
I’ll translate just small part of it:





Античная Эллада была, мягко говоря, интеллектуальным нахлебником славян, но, называя их скифами и варварами, тщательно это скрывала. Е.И.Классен пишет: "Главное племя Мизии и Македонии состояло из славян. Страна их называлась Славинею. Самыми же первыми поселенцами этой страны были пеласги, которые, по несомненным доводам г.Черткова в его исследовании пеласго-фракийских племен, оказались также славянами.
Rough translate:
Ancient Hellas, at least to say, was an intellectual idler of the Slavs, but by calling them barbarians and Scythians that was carefully hidden. E.I.Klassen writes: "The main tribe of Moesia and Macedonia consisted of Slavs. Their land was called Slavinia. First settlers of this land were Pelasgians, who, without any doubt according arguments in the study of Mr. Chertkova for Pelasgian-Thracian tribes, were Slavs, too .





Вопреки этим асиатским утверждениям, множество исследователей России, о которых ее недруги всячески стараются умалчивать, как то: М.В. Ломоносов, А.Д. Чертков, Е.И. Классен, А.Ф. Вельтман, М.А. Максимович, Ю.И. Венелин, Ю.П. Миролюбов, Ф.Л. Морошкин, С.П. Микуцкий, О.М. Бодянский, В.Е. Вилинбахов, А.П. Жуковская, Е.П. Савельев, Н.И. Надеждин, И.П. Боричевский, П.А. Лукашевич и многие другие, опираясь на письменные свидетельства и данные археологических исследований, провели серьезное исследование происхождения славянского народа и доказали, что племена, которые греческие, римские и западные историки окрестили скифами, сарматами, венетами, этрусками, пеласгами, лелегами, антами, гетами, вендами, ругами, рутенами, русинами, склавинами, ставанами, роксоланами и многими иными прозвищами - все без исключения были славянами.
Rough translate:
Contrary to these assertions, many scholars of Russia, for whom their enemies had struggles to keep them quiet, such as: MV Lomonosov, AD Chertkov, E. Klassen, AF Veltman, MA Maksimovic, Y. Venelin, JP Mirolubov, FL Moroshkin, SP Mikutsky, OM Bodyanskyi, VE Vilinbakhov, AP Zhukovsky, EP Savelyev, NI Nadezhdin, IP Borichevsky, PA Lukashevich and many others, based on the written evidence and data of archaeological researches, conducted serious study for origin of the Slavic people and proved that tribes had nicknamed by Greek, Roman and Western historians as Scythians, Sarmatians, Veneti, Etruscans, Pelasgians, lelegami, Ants, Getaeans, Wendians, rugami, ruthenium, Rusyns, Sklavinians, stavanami, Roxolans and with many other nicknames - all without exception were Slavs.



Ф.М.Апендини доказал, что древние фракийцы, македонцы, иллирийцы, скифы, геты, даки, сарматы и кельто-скифы говорили на одном, славяно-русском языке.
Rough translate:
F.M. Appendini (1768 – 1837) proved that ancient Thracians, Macedonians, Illyrians, Schytians, Getaeans, Dacians, Sarmatians, and Kelto-Schityans had spoken on one language, Slavo-Russian language.







More,


“ДРЕВНЯЯ РОССИЙСКАЯ ИСТОРИЯ ОТ НАЧАЛА РОССИЙСКОГО НАРОДА ДО КОНЧИНЫ ВЕЛИКОГО КНЯЗЯ ЯРОСЛАВА ПЕРВОГО ИЛИ ДО 1054 ГОДА”
СОЧИНЕННАЯ МИХАЙЛОМ ЛОМОНОСОВЫМ, СТАТСКИМ СОВЕТНИКОМ, ПРОФЕССОРОМ ХИМИИ И ЧЛЕНОМ САНКТ-ПЕТЕРБУРГСКОЙ ИМПЕРАТОРСКОЙ И КОРОЛЕВСКОЙ ШВЕДСКОЙ АКАДЕМИЙ НАУК
http://www.rus-sky.com/history/library/lomonosv.htm


Видя пафлагонов, енетов, мидян и амазонов в Азни славенского племени,
I see Paphlagonians, Enetians, Midians and Amazonians in the group of Slavic tribes




Какова храбрость была древних предков славенского народа, о том можно уведать, читая о войнах персидских, греческих и римских с мидянами, сарматами и иллирийцами, которые принадлежат и до россиян обще с другими славенскими поколениями. О грамоте, данной от Александра Великого славенскому народу,31 повествование хотя невероятно кажется и нам к особливой похвале служить не может, однако здесь об ней тем упоминаю, которые не знают, что, кроме наших новогородцев, и чехи оною похваляются.**

How great was courage of ancient ancestors of the Slavic people, can be seen with reading about Persian, Greek and Roman wars with Midians, Sarmatians and Illyrians who belong to the Russians and other Slavic nations. On the narration (note), given by Alexander the Great to the Slavic people…. this narration seems to serve as a thanks to our Novogorodtsev and Czechs **










В завершение этого раздела укажем на ряд соответствий в культуре Боспора и Этрурии. Данный материал представляет интерес потому, что, по утверждению академика Б.А. Рыбакова, скифы-сколоты, обитавшие на Боспоре, были протославянами. Приведем несколько примеров таких соответствий.

To conclude this section we point out a number of matches in the culture of the Bosporus and Etruria. This material is of interest because, according to Academician BA Rybakov, Scythians, who lived in the Bosporus, were Protoslavs. Here are several examples of such correspondences.
..



исследователи Ф. Воланский и Е. Классен утверждали, что трояно-этрусские надписи можно прочесть на основе славянских языков.
Researchers F Volansky. and E. Klassen claimed that Troy-Etruscan inscription can be read on the basis of Slavic language.
"черт и резов"
..

Last edited by bilbil; November 8th, 2012 at 01:19 PM.
bilbil is online now  
Old November 8th, 2012, 01:44 PM   #129

Midas's Avatar
Γορδιεϝαις the Phrygian
 
Joined: Dec 2011
From: London, UK
Posts: 3,382
Blog Entries: 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by bilbil View Post
This post is continuation of discussion from here http://www.historum.com/ancient-hist...anguage-8.html page 8.16
Midi, as I can see, you always read only things you want to see?
I think you are that kind...I read everything and this is evident from all my posting on this forum. Save me however from this Pan-Slavism BS. Nobody else than you and other confused kids read those stuff anymore.

Ad hominem statements are of no use in history. On the other hand, I can support everything I have said here with my own words and not by parroting others. On top of that, whatever I have said on this thread has to do with languages I do actually read, unlike you, who doesn't know where to look when someone tells you χούρα.

But what am I explaining really? I am dealing with someone who do not have what it takes to understand that back in 2000 - 1600 B.C (that I am reffering to), there was not such a thing like Slavic languages.
Midas is offline  
Old November 9th, 2012, 07:56 AM   #130

hazratemahmood's Avatar
Lecturer
 
Joined: May 2011
From: Karaj, Iran
Posts: 461

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niki86 View Post
What was their origin and language? Same as the Minoans or the Dorians? I've read conflicting texts from various ancient writers concerning their race.
I don't know. But I am quite sure there are people who claim they spoke Turkish.
hazratemahmood is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > Ancient History

Tags
pelasgians


Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pelasgians older than Egyptians ? haow85 European History 13 September 14th, 2010 05:23 PM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.