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Old November 7th, 2012, 06:16 AM   #11
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In fairness, Byzantium was under pressure not just from the Islamic peoples, but also from the steppe peoples of northern Asia, as well as the political machinations of their former territories in the west. 'Rome' as an entity was under pressure from the empires of the Middle East long before Mohammed existed (Parthians, Sassanians and so on). I don't think it can be put down to religion, but rather to the power always historically held by the Empires that ruled the Iran/Iraq region. If we look at the people who wiped out Byzantium as the successors of Parthia, it appears more as the last shot fired in a 2000 year long war.
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Old November 7th, 2012, 06:33 AM   #12

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The real destroyers of the Classic world were the Muslim invaders, who conquered Egypt - the main source of food for the Byzantine empire, Syria - its centers of science and education, Judea - the religious centers, thus leading to its fatal weakening and further decline.
I totally agree with this, but in a more generalized form. It was actually the rise of systematic (Abrahamic) religions that finally destroyed the classical world, all over Europe, western Asia and north Africa. These religions had statements which addressed the political and economic concerns of the government (unlike older traditions). So as they started to become popular, many of the pillars of the classical civilizations were under attack: slavery, total domination over the people by a god-like monarch and the whole idea of classes within the society was shaken; and although these ideas were transformed and kept alive they were seriously weakened in the process.

Even in very minute ways, the ideals of the classical world were changed. The Greeks (and Romans alike) admired the perfect physique of the human body, as reflected in their arts; but in contrast Abrahamic religions put more emphasis on how one should strive to achieve fine virtues instead. I am not going to give a complete set of these transformations in Europe as most of you are already far more knowledgeable than me.
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Old November 7th, 2012, 07:26 AM   #13
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It's not original at all, though. Even as early as the 1930s scholars under Henri Pirenne saw Islam as a major disruptive force in the Mediterranean. I don't have Gibbon, Rostovtzeff or A.H.M. Jones with me, but I'd wager they gave it a role long before Pirenne. If his site is anything to go on, I can't help but feel that this guy puts his bigoted views before that of his "scholarship."
Here we go - the end of Chapter 46 of Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire:

Quote:
While the emperor triumphed at Constantinople or Jerusalem, an obscure town on the confines of Syria was pillaged by the Saracens, and they cut in pieces some troops who advanced to its relief; an ordinary and trifling occurrence, had it not been the prelude of a mighty revolution. These robbers were the apostles of Mahomet; their fanatic valour had emerged from the desert; and in the last eight years of his reign, Heraclius lost to the Arabs the same provinces which he had rescued from the Persians.
He goes on to devote three chapters to the Arabs and the rise of Islam. It's not like it was an obscure event that historians have missed up until now.
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Old November 7th, 2012, 12:30 PM   #14

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Originally Posted by hazratemahmood View Post
I totally agree with this, but in a more generalized form. It was actually the rise of systematic (Abrahamic) religions that finally destroyed the classical world, all over Europe, western Asia and north Africa. These religions had statements which addressed the political and economic concerns of the government (unlike older traditions). So as they started to become popular, many of the pillars of the classical civilizations were under attack: slavery, total domination over the people by a god-like monarch and the whole idea of classes within the society was shaken; and although these ideas were transformed and kept alive they were seriously weakened in the process.

Even in very minute ways, the ideals of the classical world were changed. The Greeks (and Romans alike) admired the perfect physique of the human body, as reflected in their arts; but in contrast Abrahamic religions put more emphasis on how one should strive to achieve fine virtues instead. I am not going to give a complete set of these transformations in Europe as most of you are already far more knowledgeable than me.
I would disagree in that Christianity is a political system, like Islam is. Christianity is a completely transcedental religion, even if its book, the Bible is mostly a collection of counterfait textes.

Ofcourse Christianity was a major factor in the extinction of ancient world, nevertheless, I see the impact of Islam more important for this extinction, because the ancient world gravitated around those centers and territories conquered by Arabs: Alexandria, Antiochia etc, which even after the instauration of Christianity retained much of their Hellenistic culture and way of life.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 04:22 AM   #15

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This is a bit scary...The way he puts it. He sounds like a very biased republican "scientist".
This.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 05:16 AM   #16
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Watch this interesting video:


Why We Are Afraid, A 1400 Year Secret, by Dr Bill Warner


If you don't have patience to watch it entirely, here's the idea: German barbarians who attacked Roman empire were not the cause of its falling
The real destroyers of the Classic world were the Muslim invaders


).
Not sure what this Cr*p is doing in a history forum

The guy is clearly a bigot with a political and religious agenda

His theory is simple Islam is the root of all evil.... so of course the fall of the Roman empire - thats a new one- (and slavery and the armenian genocide among others) are the fault of Islam.......Note the 120 million supposed deaths in Africa caused by Islam... That is a number that comes up in the hard core anti islam site for which NO evidence is ever provided.

But those same people will always state that WW1/ WW2 or the Holocaust have NOTHING to do with christianity...
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Old November 9th, 2012, 04:49 AM   #17

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The guy is clearly a bigot with a political and religious agenda

Yes, I know, every person who says something defavorable to Islam is a bigot, fascist, maniac.
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Old November 9th, 2012, 05:43 AM   #18
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Ofcourse Christianity was a major factor in the extinction of ancient world, nevertheless, I see the impact of Islam more important for this extinction, because the ancient world gravitated around those centers and territories conquered by Arabs: Alexandria, Antiochia etc, which even after the instauration of Christianity retained much of their Hellenistic culture and way of life.
err..... this was called the graeco roman world you know ........ because it revolved not around Antioch but rather around Greece (Athens notably) and Italy (Rome of course).... Despite their efforts the arabs did not make it there,,,,, assorted germanic tribes did
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Old November 9th, 2012, 05:56 AM   #19
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Yes, I know, every person who says something defavorable to Islam is a bigot, fascist, maniac.
yeah, right, let's exagerate.....

this guy is not "saying something defavorable to Islam" he is:

- using double standards against a specific group

- is either ignorant or chooses to paint everyone with the same brush (for example he seems to be unaware-or chooses to ignore- the fact that there are arabs who are christian,,, he seems to be unaware that natives of north Africa are berbers not related to arabs)

- is falsifying information to further his own goals (such as 120 million africans, several times more that the total population of Africa at the time btw, allegedly killed by "Islam")

Once again, this video is political and religious propaganda and is not fit to be in a serious history forum........ The organization that this gentleman belongs to is known for its extreme positions

The question is, why are YOU spreading this propaganda ?
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Old November 9th, 2012, 06:18 AM   #20

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err..... this was called the graeco roman world you know ........ because it revolved not around Antioch but rather around Greece (Athens notably) and Italy (Rome of course)....
Libanius would find that rather offensive. Graeco-Roman civilization was a confederation of cities, and in the late empire in the east the three most important ones were Antioch, Alexandria, and Constantinople. Athens was pretty much irrelevant.


At 9:27 in the video: 'I am not an historian...." You don't need to remind us, Dr. Warner. That's blazingly obvious right from the beginning. I love how he tells us that the Germans didn't cause the collapse of the Western Roman Empire because they founded the state of modern Germany and were very intelligent. This is just so stupid I am left rather speechless.

Last edited by Kirialax; November 9th, 2012 at 06:36 AM.
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