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Old December 11th, 2012, 04:52 PM   #141

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I forget, what is Rohl's beef with the traditional chronology's use of the Sothic Cycle to anchor the dates of the Middle Kingdom?

And another question, how does the New Chronology mesh with the Mycenaean and Hittite collapse? Traditionally the Philistines (called the Peleshet by the Egyptians) were refugees from the Aegean who, along with other "Sea People" groups, attacked Egypt and THEN settled in the Levant. If the New Chronology is correct then the Philistines had already settled in the Levant BEFORE they attacked Egypt.

This would seem to indicate that the Late Bronze Age Collapse was not a sudden event, but a slow wave that spread with knowledge of iron smelting, weakening before it broke on the shores of Egypt.
If you would like to learn more about Rohl's chronology you might do a search on Yahoo Groups, there is a New Chronology group, or at least there was a couple of years ago. I was a member there for a number of years, the group does have some very serious and adept researchers. And there is a large chart in their Files section showing how the New Chronology fits in with the ancient world, Assyria, Hatti, etc.

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Old December 11th, 2012, 05:25 PM   #142

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Originally Posted by TaylorS View Post
I forget, what is Rohl's beef with the traditional chronology's use of the Sothic Cycle to anchor the dates of the Middle Kingdom?
Main reason; the Egyptian calendar based on the Sothic cycle loses 1 day every 4 years, a heliacal rise will take place on the same day for four years in a row, and any observation of that rise, can date to any one of those four years, making it very imprecise.

For the most part, if you read the criticisms of the Sothic cycle on Wikipedia, it'll give you a general knowledge of why it's disparaged. It's not so much Rohl's beef with it (in fact it has a much more prominent feature in Peter James' et. al's book Centuries of Darkness), and the fact that both New Chronologists and traditional chronologists don't use it.

Even such a staunch traditionalist like Kenneth Kitchen no longer believes it's viable to use (although he used to), and as a whole it has always been the weakest part of the pillars of the traditional chronology.

As for Wickerman's mention of the New Chronology group on Yahoo Groups, it still exists and is still active, and from time to time you can even find David Rohl there discussing things. So if you have specific questions for him, it might be the easiest route to do so.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 06:00 AM   #143
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Even if Moses or anyone even remotely similar may have actually existed, there's absolutely no relevant hard evidence that may suggest that any interaction with any Pharaoh as described by the Torah could have had any historical basis, aside of being an obvious nationalistic-religious myth.
First, I completely disagree with the above statement, and here's why. The actual crossing siite has been found, complete with coral-incrusted six-spoked chariot wheels, coral-incrusted chariot frames, and one set of four-spoked gold and silver chariot wheels. The latter belonged to Pharaoh THUTMOSES 4/ AMENHOTEP 3, according to one sorce. But unarguably on which Pharaoh it was, the wheels definatley belonged to a Pharaoh. As well as certian documents, as well as two monuments erected around the time of king Solomon. For mor information, check out the web site ArkDiscovery.com and click the tab to the left labeled "Red Sea Crossing." You can't get harder evidence than that, if you ask me.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 07:15 AM   #144

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Originally Posted by Jarl Eirikr View Post
First, I completely disagree with the above statement, and here's why. The actual crossing siite has been found, complete with coral-incrusted six-spoked chariot wheels, coral-incrusted chariot frames, and one set of four-spoked gold and silver chariot wheels. The latter belonged to Pharaoh THUTMOSES 4/ AMENHOTEP 3, according to one sorce. But unarguably on which Pharaoh it was, the wheels definatley belonged to a Pharaoh. As well as certian documents, as well as two monuments erected around the time of king Solomon. For mor information, check out the web site ArkDiscovery.com and click the tab to the left labeled "Red Sea Crossing." You can't get harder evidence than that, if you ask me.
Some wheels, after 3200 years on the same place? Of course!
The place names of the Exodus story (Ramesses, Sukkoth, Etham, Jam Suph, Pihachirot, Migdol etc.) can be quite clearly identified in Egyptian sources (Pi-Ramesses, Tjeku, iw ‘tm, p3 twfi, Hnt H3-r-ti, Migdol, etc.). These places are not located near the Red Sea but in the NE of Egypt at the border to the Sinai.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 12:51 PM   #145

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarl Eirikr View Post
First, I completely disagree with the above statement, and here's why. The actual crossing siite has been found, complete with coral-incrusted six-spoked chariot wheels, coral-incrusted chariot frames, and one set of four-spoked gold and silver chariot wheels. The latter belonged to Pharaoh THUTMOSES 4/ AMENHOTEP 3, according to one sorce. But unarguably on which Pharaoh it was, the wheels definatley belonged to a Pharaoh. As well as certian documents, as well as two monuments erected around the time of king Solomon. For mor information, check out the web site ArkDiscovery.com and click the tab to the left labeled "Red Sea Crossing." You can't get harder evidence than that, if you ask me.
Do you happen to know where these wheels are today?
I've asked this several times before but have never received an acceptable answer.
Might I suggest you read either, or preferably both, books by James K Hoffmeier:
Israel in Egypt, 1997.
Israel in Sinai, 2005.
These offer real archaeology, though Hoffmeier is a christian his archaeology is mainstream and peer reviewed.

The biblical 'crossing' (tradition) was not across the sea known today as the Red Sea.

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Old December 12th, 2012, 01:01 PM   #146

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Do you happen to know where these wheels are today?
I've asked this several times before but have never received an acceptable answer.
Might I suggest you read either, or preferably both, books by James K Hoffmeier:
Israel in Egypt, 1997.
Israel in Sinai, 2005.
These offer real archaeology, though Hoffmeier is a christian his archaeology is mainstream and peer reviewed.

The biblical 'crossing' (tradition) was not across the sea known today as the Red Sea.

...
No disrespect intended, but have any of these chariot wheels been surfaced and researched by reputable sources. And since it has been believed that the Exodus took place in NE Egypt near the Sinai, how do we know that these are not from some other war? battle?. The forces of Egypt had been waging war all through that region for thousands of years after all.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 01:49 PM   #147

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarl Eirikr View Post
First, I completely disagree with the above statement, and here's why. The actual crossing siite has been found, complete with coral-incrusted six-spoked chariot wheels, coral-incrusted chariot frames, and one set of four-spoked gold and silver chariot wheels. The latter belonged to Pharaoh THUTMOSES 4/ AMENHOTEP 3, according to one sorce. But unarguably on which Pharaoh it was, the wheels definatley belonged to a Pharaoh. As well as certian documents, as well as two monuments erected around the time of king Solomon. For mor information, check out the web site ArkDiscovery.com and click the tab to the left labeled "Red Sea Crossing." You can't get harder evidence than that, if you ask me.
A part all, and confessing that I'm indulging a bit in a quite naive attitude, to find ancient finds coming from Egyptian military chariots in that region [where Egyptian armies passed for many centuries ...] is like finding finds coming from Roman legions equipment along the Mediterranean coast between Italy and France [or along the Roman ways of movement through the Balkans, just to add an other comparison].

But even with this finds [even if they are actually verified by archaeology] we can simply confirm what's obvious. Since the Egyptian sphere of influence extended itself over the land of Canaan for many centuries ... a lot of Egyptian military contingents transited through those lands, in any period.
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Old December 28th, 2012, 06:13 AM   #148
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Hi all, new person here. No-one invited me, I was reading this site for other reasons and came across this thread so registered. I'm just an amateur but reading this thread has piqued something I have thought made sense for a while....

Here's my question.

Could the Exodus be later, after the Hittites fall? After all, at the same time, while the Egyptians have the Hyksos in the delta I don't think they would have much control over the Levant either.

If you look at why Joseph supposedly brought the Son's of Israel to the Land of Goshen(Nile delta) the reason given is famine. That makes me think it's something big, not normal. Late Bronze Age collapse maybe?

At the end of the Bronze Age, well you know what happened, Mycenaean and Hittite collapse etc. If this eastern Med, late Bronze Age, collapse was climate caused and this is what drove the Sea Peoples and others to look for better pastures, Egypt would be an oasis, watered by the Nile and not the sky.

When the Egyptians finally kick them out with their tails between their legs(Hyksos expulsion) they make up fantastic stories to tell themselves and the people they meet on their way to the Levant, where no superpower currently has control.

So does this at all fit together? I think the Exodus(expulsion) would have to be moved closer to us in time though to make it work though wouldn't it.

If you have any reading on this it would be great too. I hate having things hanging loose in my head so some good evidence to help me tie it down a little would be grand.
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Old December 28th, 2012, 09:10 AM   #149

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Welcome Setanta,

Your theory is sound and close to many of the more educated theory's on here right now.

The myth that the Exodus was during Ramses the Greats reign is just that, a myth.

As I have contended, the Exodus must have happen after, because as stated, the Battle of Kadesh is our most pivotal piece of information. The western Levant was controlled by both the Egyptian and Hittite Empires during this time period. Yet no mention of either Empire is told in the Exodus story, in addition it is highly unlikely that the Hebrews would have been able to force either the Hittites or Egyptians from the Levant after the so called 40 years of wandering in the desert.
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Old December 28th, 2012, 11:33 AM   #150
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you do realize that ron wyatt is a joke right? is "discouveries" are mostl frauds
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