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Old December 4th, 2012, 07:25 PM   #51

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Originally Posted by Thegn Ansgar View Post
You wouldn't happen to have read the translation of the Ipuwer Papyrus would you? That in itself is extremely interesting concerning the parallels it has to the Biblical Exodus narrative.

The main rejection to it describing the same event is mostly on the basis of dating, but if one looks at how much debate is occurring about the Egyptian chronology, speaks quite a lot to the text. If that is really the only objection, it seems maybe there is some... dogmatic belief on the side of the traditionalists of the Egyptian chronology.
Yes, I have read about them. They certainly do resemble the biblical account. As you note dating is a problem that weaves throughout the period and even the traditional chronologies have been revised a few times.

Once again the dating of the papyrus is in that same couple centuries or so later than the traditional exodus date...again the new chronology would make it roughly contemporary to the exodus. Something to note.

There definitely is a dogmatic protectionism among the old guard in Egyptology, careers and reputations to protect.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 07:37 PM   #52
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The fact of the matter is the Exodus story is a Myth, so with Myth's we get speculation or as you call it "unsound speculation". There is no hard evidence of anything mentioned in the Exodus account, again its a myth not a historical event, so my guess is a good as yours.

As far as Exodus goes, yes Every plague was a mockery of the Egyptian Pantheon, the last plague was against ALL the Gods while the first nine Targeted some of the more important dieties...

"and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord."
ex. 12:12

For example the very first plague affect the Nile. Why?? Why is the first plague against the Nile?? Why was on of the Plagues 'Darkness"?? Did it have something to do with the Sun God Amun-Ra, the chief God of Egypt.

Against All The Gods Of Egypt (#1) | Plagues Of Moses In Egypt
An objection against the Exodus account has been that the Pharaohs of Egypt did not make any record of the Exodus. However, this is not unusual, for kings of more modern times have recorded only their victories and not their defeats and have often tried to erase anything historical that is contrary to their personal or nationalistic image or to the ideology they are trying to inculcate in their people. Even in recent times rulers have tried to obliterate the works and reputations of their predecessors. Anything regarded as embarrassing or distasteful was left out of Egyptian inscriptions or effaced as soon as possible. An example is the chiseling away by her successor, Thutmose III, of the name and representation of Queen Hatshepsut on a stone monumental record uncovered at Deir al-Bahri in Egypt.—See Archaeology and Bible History, by J. P. Free, 1964, p. 98 and photograph opposite p. 94.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 10:25 PM   #53

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All I see here is the same old Skeptic response of "Absence of evidence is evidence that the Bible is wrong."
My approach to sacred texts is well different. In particular regarding the Old Testament [the Tanak, and more in particular about the Torah]; I tend to remember that those books were also collections of laws and chronicles. They were the memory of the Jewish people [coming from original oral traditions].

So that, with suitable discernment, I tend to keep chronicle and historical facts present in the Bible [and supported by independent historical / archaeological sources] from the rest of the tradition [with less or more allegorical content] not supported by physical evidences or independent sources yet.

This doesn't diminish the value of the tradition in my eyes. Anyway I keep it in its proper context. Until archaeology / history will allow me [or not] to move the tradition among the historical sources.

I could say that I consider a tradition a "collateral historical source of suggestions". The point is that it's not possible to measure the whole historicity of its content without independent confirmations [Troy entered history when archaeology found it ...].
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Old December 4th, 2012, 11:29 PM   #54
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The version of the event detailed in the bible s fictionalized, the fact that the name of the Pharoah is not given is testament to this. Now did something happen, sure...but that something must be looked at according to actual history. The fact that people put up the biblical account as a primary source is what Im driving at, its not a sound account to base conclusions off of, as given the Thousands of years of speculation with no conclusive results.

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In order for Exodus being a myth to be a proven fact, it has first to be proven. What proof do you have that Exodus is a myth? I eagerly await your evidence and proof.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 11:37 PM   #55
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Actually Manetho attributes the Hebrews with the Hyksos, Millitaristic Invaders whom were driven out by the Egyptians in the 18th Dynasty.

Manetho on the Hyksos

So if we go by Manetho, it makes it clear the biblical account was fictionalized, as the Hebrews were not some peaceful innocent family of 70 who were later enslaved by some evil nameless Pharoah then freed by "God", what they were, were members of an Invading millitant party who razed and burned Egypt ruled for 100 yrs and in turn were driven out of Egypt in defeat. I don't see this as evidence for the Exodus.

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Manetho, an Egyptian priest who evidently hated the Jews, wrote in the Greek language about 280 B.C.E. The Jewish historian Josephus quotes Manetho as saying that the ancestors of the Jews “entered Egypt in their myriads and subdued the inhabitants,” and then Josephus says that Manetho “goes on to admit that they were afterwards driven out of the country, occupied what is now Judaea, founded Jerusalem, and built the temple.”—Against Apion, I, 228 (26).

While Manetho’s account is in general very unhistorical, the significant fact is that he mentions the Jews as being in Egypt and as going out, and in further writings, according to Josephus, he identifies Moses with Osarsiph, an Egyptian priest, indicating that, even though Egyptian monuments do not record the fact, the Jews were in Egypt and Moses was their leader. Josephus speaks of another Egyptian historian, Chaeremon, who says that Joseph and Moses were driven out of Egypt at the same time; also Josephus mentions a Lysimachus who tells a similar story.—Against Apion, I, 228, 238 (26); 288, 290 (32); 299 (33); 304-311 (34).
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Old December 5th, 2012, 08:14 AM   #56

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I could say that I consider a tradition a "collateral historical source of suggestions". The point is that it's not possible to measure the whole historicity of its content without independent confirmations [Troy entered history when archaeology found it ...]
That's very sound in my view. Troy is a good example of what people, until recently, considered a myth. Even when Troy was found it had many detractors because of dating and multiple city layers etc., but archeology has won out.

Last edited by unclefred; December 5th, 2012 at 08:20 AM.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 05:43 PM   #57

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There is absolutely no evidence that the Exodus story even happened. If it has any historicity, I would guess it is a highly distorted folk-memory of Egyptian imperialism in the Levant.
Oh yes, there are. So you are wrong. First, an Egyptian inscription of seven year drought was discovered in Elephantine. Then Ramese II's first born son was discovered to have died within the Exodus time frame. Then Rameses II was discovered to spend enormous amount of labor force in constructing three new cities in the Delta.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 05:44 PM   #58

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Originally Posted by Jari View Post
The version of the event detailed in the bible s fictionalized, the fact that the name of the Pharoah is not given is testament to this. Now did something happen, sure...but that something must be looked at according to actual history. The fact that people put up the biblical account as a primary source is what Im driving at, its not a sound account to base conclusions off of, as given the Thousands of years of speculation with no conclusive results.
Your entire proof that Exodus is fictional is that Exodus didn't mention the pharoah's real name? Then according to your own logic, every post you made here is fictional because you didn't mention your real name!
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Old December 5th, 2012, 07:32 PM   #59

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There is some scientific proofs regarding the partition of the sea and the red colored waters mentioned in the Old Book.

The first was an earthquake that some geologists have stated to be within the Exodus time frame that created a brief moment in which the waters fell back leaving some tracks “open”.

And speaking about red waters, they have been seen actually in some lakes in Africa when telluric movement takes place or the pressure exerted on subterranean gas is such that releases it, coloring in the process the water and killing all the life within it.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 10:46 PM   #60

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Originally Posted by Mandate of Heaven View Post
Oh yes, there are. So you are wrong. First, an Egyptian inscription of seven year drought was discovered in Elephantine. Then Ramese II's first born son was discovered to have died within the Exodus time frame. Then Rameses II was discovered to spend enormous amount of labor force in constructing three new cities in the Delta.
If you make reference to the "Famine stele", it's well far from the eventual period of the events. It was engraved in Ptolemaic period and it reports tales from the age of Djoser.

If we are thinking to the same stone [Sehel inscription for the Governor at Elephantine], it begins

Quote:
Year 18 of Horns: Neterkhet; the King of Upper and Lower Egypt: Neterkhet; Two Ladies: Neterkhet; Gold-Horus: Djoser; under the Count, Prince, Governor of the domains of the South, Chief of the Nubians in Yebu, Mesir. There was brought to him this royal decree. To let you know:


Not my translation, but the translation by M. Lichtheimin his Ancient Egyptian Literature: A Book of Readings].

This would move the figure of Joseph back to the 3rd dynasty.
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