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Old December 2nd, 2012, 11:38 AM   #1

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The "Pharaoh" of Moses?


Watching a program on BBC I have note that they were presenting Amon-her-khepshef, [i mn ḥr ḫpš f, Amun is with his strong arm] the first son of the Great Ramses, as the royal person [a monarch, not actually a Pharaoh, since the Pharaoh, Ramses II was still "in the office"] who tried and reach the escaping Semitic tribe leaded by Mose.

This Prince died, according to last research, because of a wound to the head. Such a wound is compatible with a fight, using weapons. Now, the "Jews" were not so numerous as the Bible suggests and overall they were armed. So it was a fight more than a hunting ....

Now, at first sight my thought was that BBC was presenting a hypothesis similar to what we hear about Atlantis.

In other words BBC has been the megaphone for the attempt to put a brief sector of history in connection with the Biblical tradition. There are so many details to change to make this possible that at the end it's the same when someone suggests that Atlantis existed in the Mediterranean Sea and about 1500 years before Christ.

In any case, the try is a good try. I would remember that Ramses II had for real an officer called "Ms" [Mose], but so far there are no clues that this personage was in some way related with immigrated communities in Egypt.

There is a point: the 10th plague of the Bible is about the firstborns, it says not that much about the age at which they died.
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Old December 2nd, 2012, 02:24 PM   #2

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Originally Posted by AlpinLuke View Post
Watching a program on BBC I have note that they were presenting Amon-her-khepshef, [i mn ḥr ḫpš f, Amun is with his strong arm] the first son of the Great Ramses, as the royal person [a monarch, not actually a Pharaoh, since the Pharaoh, Ramses II was still "in the office"] who tried and reach the escaping Semitic tribe leaded by Mose.

This Prince died, according to last research, because of a wound to the head. Such a wound is compatible with a fight, using weapons. Now, the "Jews" were not so numerous as the Bible suggests and overall they were armed. So it was a fight more than a hunting ....

Now, at first sight my thought was that BBC was presenting a hypothesis similar to what we hear about Atlantis.



In other words BBC has been the megaphone for the attempt to put a brief sector of history in connection with the Biblical tradition. There are so many details to change to make this possible that at the end it's the same when someone suggests that Atlantis existed in the Mediterranean Sea and about 1500 years before Christ.

In any case, the try is a good try. I would remember that Ramses II had for real an officer called "Ms" [Mose], but so far there are no clues that this personage was in some way related with immigrated communities in Egypt.

There is a point: the 10th plague of the Bible is about the firstborns, it says not that much about the age at which they died.
I was always under the impression that modern historians thought that in indeed it was the not the famous Ramses of the Battle of Kadesh, Ramses the Great if you will. But it was in fact another Pharaoh, I think they said one of the Thutmose?
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Old December 2nd, 2012, 02:31 PM   #3
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Even if Moses or anyone even remotely similar may have actually existed, there's absolutely no relevant hard evidence that may suggest that any interaction with any Pharaoh as described by the Torah could have had any historical basis, aside of being an obvious nationalistic-religious myth.
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Old December 2nd, 2012, 03:02 PM   #4

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Ramses II has been a leading suspect by traditionalists. Thutmose II also has strong backing as the Pharaoh of Moses' time. Thutmose III the Pharaoh of the Exodus. The traditional Egyptian chronology is under fire these days, and other Pharaohs have been mentioned. It's a matter of about 300 years. Matching the Egypt. chronology with the Biblical one is tricky due to uncertain dates.

If Thutmose II was the Pharaoh from whom Moses fled, Thutmose III may have been the Pharaoh of the Exodus. The Jewish historian Josephus wrote the following:

"The Pharaoh, from whom Moses fled, died, and a new Pharaoh had become ruler."

We know that after the death of Thutmose II, his son not by Hatshepsut, became Pharaoh. Thutmose III co-reigned with Queen Hatshepsut until her death in 1482 B.C. He then ruled alone until approximately 1450 B.C. It is also known that Thutmoses III was so jealous of the accomplishments of Queen Hatshepsut that one of his first acts, after her death, was to purge her name off of all monuments in Egypt.

During his reign he had recorded that he subdued the Ethiopians.

Although the bible doesn't mention these events, the historian Josephus states the following:

" A state of war broke out between the Egyptians and the Ethiopians. At this time Moses had grown to be a man. The two sides fought a great battle in which the Ethiopians were triumphant, and they pushed to conquer all of Egypt. The Egyptians looking for help inquired of their priests. The priests revealed to them that they should make Moses their general . . . Moses then became the commander of a great army . . . In a surprise attack against the Ethiopians, Moses led his troops to victory."

I've read speculation that Thutmose III took credit for victories over the Ethiopians, even though Moses achieved them.

Josephus also mentions that Moses married an Ethiopian woman after this conflict:

"Because of the bravery of Moses, The daughter of the king of Ethiopia, Tharbis, saw Moses and fell madly in love with him. She sent to him a delegation of her most trusted servants to propose marriage. He accepted, on the condition that she would surrender the city over to him . . . After Moses had punished the Ethiopians, he praised God and then celebrated his marriage."

The bible also mentions his Ethiopian wife in Numbers 12:1: "Then Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married; for he had married an Ethiopian woman."

Josephus also writes: "The Pharaoh, from whom Moses had fled, died, and a new Pharaoh had become ruler. Moses traveled to his palace and told him of the victories he gained for Egypt in the war against Ethiopia . . . He also spoke to Pharaoh about what had taken place on Mount Sinai, and when Pharaoh laughed, Moses showed him the signs."

-Antiquities of the Jews - The Historian Flavius Josephus
Book 2 Chapter 9 (Moses and Thermuthis )
Book 2 Chapter 10 ( Moses in Ethiopia )

Last edited by unclefred; December 2nd, 2012 at 03:10 PM.
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Old December 2nd, 2012, 06:00 PM   #5

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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclefred View Post
Ramses II has been a leading suspect by traditionalists. Thutmose II also has strong backing as the Pharaoh of Moses' time. Thutmose III the Pharaoh of the Exodus. The traditional Egyptian chronology is under fire these days, and other Pharaohs have been mentioned. It's a matter of about 300 years. Matching the Egypt. chronology with the Biblical one is tricky due to uncertain dates.

If Thutmose II was the Pharaoh from whom Moses fled, Thutmose III may have been the Pharaoh of the Exodus. The Jewish historian Josephus wrote the following:

"The Pharaoh, from whom Moses fled, died, and a new Pharaoh had become ruler."


Then it stands to reason that Ramses the Great, the Victor of Kadesh could not have been "the" Pharaoh, of the Exodus story.

Here is my case.....

Kadesh is in the Levant, the transition of such a massive force of both Egyptians and Hittites through that territory would surly have caught the attention of the Hebrews.

Even though they were exiled allegedly for 40years in the desert, when they finally settled the Levant there was no mention of Egyptian or Hittite garrisons left from the war.

If my dates or time frame is off please let know or if there is a hole in my logci please share.
We know that after the death of Thutmose II, his son not by Hatshepsut, became Pharaoh. Thutmose III co-reigned with Queen Hatshepsut until her death in 1482 B.C. He then ruled alone until approximately 1450 B.C. It is also known that Thutmoses III was so jealous of the accomplishments of Queen Hatshepsut that one of his first acts, after her death, was to purge her name off of all monuments in Egypt.

During his reign he had recorded that he subdued the Ethiopians.

Although the bible doesn't mention these events, the historian Josephus states the following:

" A state of war broke out between the Egyptians and the Ethiopians. At this time Moses had grown to be a man. The two sides fought a great battle in which the Ethiopians were triumphant, and they pushed to conquer all of Egypt. The Egyptians looking for help inquired of their priests. The priests revealed to them that they should make Moses their general . . . Moses then became the commander of a great army . . . In a surprise attack against the Ethiopians, Moses led his troops to victory."

I've read speculation that Thutmose III took credit for victories over the Ethiopians, even though Moses achieved them.

Josephus also mentions that Moses married an Ethiopian woman after this conflict:

"Because of the bravery of Moses, The daughter of the king of Ethiopia, Tharbis, saw Moses and fell madly in love with him. She sent to him a delegation of her most trusted servants to propose marriage. He accepted, on the condition that she would surrender the city over to him . . . After Moses had punished the Ethiopians, he praised God and then celebrated his marriage."

The bible also mentions his Ethiopian wife in Numbers 12:1: "Then Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married; for he had married an Ethiopian woman."

Josephus also writes: "The Pharaoh, from whom Moses had fled, died, and a new Pharaoh had become ruler. Moses traveled to his palace and told him of the victories he gained for Egypt in the war against Ethiopia . . . He also spoke to Pharaoh about what had taken place on Mount Sinai, and when Pharaoh laughed, Moses showed him the signs."

-Antiquities of the Jews - The Historian Flavius Josephus
Book 2 Chapter 9 (Moses and Thermuthis )
Book 2 Chapter 10 ( Moses in Ethiopia )
Then it stands to reason that Ramses the Great, the Victor of Kadesh could not have been "the" Pharaoh, of the Exodus story.

Here is my case.....

Kadesh is in the Levant, the transition of such a massive force of both Egyptians and Hittites through that territory would surly have caught the attention of the Hebrews.

Even though they were exiled allegedly for 40years in the desert, when they finally settled the Levant there was no mention of Egyptian or Hittite garrisons left from the war.

If my dates or time frame is off please let know or if there is a hole in my logic please share.
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Old December 2nd, 2012, 10:51 PM   #6

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paragonrex View Post
Then it stands to reason that Ramses the Great, the Victor of Kadesh could not have been "the" Pharaoh, of the Exodus story.

Here is my case.....

Kadesh is in the Levant, the transition of such a massive force of both Egyptians and Hittites through that territory would surly have caught the attention of the Hebrews.

Even though they were exiled allegedly for 40years in the desert, when they finally settled the Levant there was no mention of Egyptian or Hittite garrisons left from the war.

If my dates or time frame is off please let know or if there is a hole in my logic please share.
I agree. I think the theory on Ramses is falling into disfavor. The bible says that the Israelites built a city called Raamses, and since Ramesses II, who ruled between 1290 and 1224 B.C., built a royal city named Pi-Ramesse, it became accepted that he may be the pharaoh of the Exodus. Recent excavations at this site indicate that this city was occupied much earlier by the Egyptians.

Also, the name Raamses has been found inscribed on a burial tomb painting from Pharaoh Amenhotep III; who ruled nearly 100 years before Ramesses II.

Although the bible never specifically identifies the pharaoh of the Exodus by name, it does tell us the exact date of the Exodus.

1Kings 6:1 states that Solomon began building the Temple in the fourth year of his reign, 480 years after the Exodus. Most bible scholars agree that the fourth year of Solomon's reign was 967 B.C.

The date of the Exodus can be calculated: 967 + 480 = 1447 B.C. And according to Egyptologists, Pharaoh Ramesses did not begin his reign until around 1290 BC., so he couldn't have been the Exodus pharaoh.

The Pharaoh of that period is believed to have been Thutmose II and III. If the chronology is correct, that is.
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Old December 2nd, 2012, 11:32 PM   #7

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I agree. I think the theory on Ramses is falling into disfavor. The bible says that the Israelites built a city called Raamses, and since Ramesses II, who ruled between 1290 and 1224 B.C., built a royal city named Pi-Ramesse, it became accepted that he may be the pharaoh of the Exodus. Recent excavations at this site indicate that this city was occupied much earlier by the Egyptians.

Also, the name Raamses has been found inscribed on a burial tomb painting from Pharaoh Amenhotep III; who ruled nearly 100 years before Ramesses II.

Although the bible never specifically identifies the pharaoh of the Exodus by name, it does tell us the exact date of the Exodus.

1Kings 6:1 states that Solomon began building the Temple in the fourth year of his reign, 480 years after the Exodus. Most bible scholars agree that the fourth year of Solomon's reign was 967 B.C.

The date of the Exodus can be calculated: 967 + 480 = 1447 B.C. And according to Egyptologists, Pharaoh Ramesses did not begin his reign until around 1290 BC., so he couldn't have been the Exodus pharaoh.

The Pharaoh of that period is believed to have been Thutmose II and III. If the chronology is correct, that is.
Well, if we accept such an accurate temporal reference [1447 B.C.] we can identify the Pharaoh of that period, but chronologies are not in agreement: Thutmoses III [even if consideration about calculation of the sequence of the monarchs could even suggest that this happened at the end of the kingdom of the Queen Hatshepsut. And this would be interesting ... Moses would have faced a female Pharaoh ...]. Then we've got Amenhotep II, whose reign is in that range.

Anyway making a compared research among the egyptologists, I would indicate Thutmoses III and Queen Hatshepsut as the most "suspected".
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Old December 3rd, 2012, 12:15 AM   #8

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And according to new chronologists it would line up with Sobekhotep IV and Dedumose I (for Moses and the Exodus), and thus the Pharaoh of Joseph would possibly be Amenemhet III.
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Old December 3rd, 2012, 12:35 AM   #9

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paragonrex View Post
Then it stands to reason that Ramses the Great, the Victor of Kadesh could not have been "the" Pharaoh, of the Exodus story.

Here is my case.....

Kadesh is in the Levant, the transition of such a massive force of both Egyptians and Hittites through that territory would surly have caught the attention of the Hebrews.

Even though they were exiled allegedly for 40years in the desert, when they finally settled the Levant there was no mention of Egyptian or Hittite garrisons left from the war.

If my dates or time frame is off please let know or if there is a hole in my logic please share.
How did unclefreds's post excludes Ramese II from the possible candidates? He made a unverified hypothesis, and that's all.
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Old December 3rd, 2012, 12:55 AM   #10

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This is probably the first and last time I'll ever say this...but sylla1 is right.
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