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View Poll Results: Favorite Germanic Tribe That Invaded Rome at its Fall
Visigoths 12 13.79%
Ostrogoths 6 6.90%
Vandals 12 13.79%
Franks 17 19.54%
Suevi 12 13.79%
Alans 2 2.30%
Burgundians 2 2.30%
Huns 5 5.75%
Gepids 0 0%
Lombards 1 1.15%
Angles 4 4.60%
Saxons 6 6.90%
Jutes 0 0%
other 2 2.30%
none 6 6.90%
Voters: 87. You may not vote on this poll

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Old July 10th, 2013, 09:59 PM   #111

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I'm with the Vandals too, they outclassed them all.

They bowled right through the Roman defenses and got away with it.
They made it to Carthage and set up shop for a long time.
There were a few rocks along the road, but they survived.
Until Justinian.

All the tribes that stayed behind were destroyed.
except the Franks who stayed to form a Roman Empire of their own
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Old July 11th, 2013, 06:22 AM   #112
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except the Franks who stayed to form a Roman Empire of their own
The Franks were a northern (western) tribe, they weren't caught in the crush of tribes in Dacia.
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Old July 11th, 2013, 10:08 AM   #113

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The Franks were a northern (western) tribe, they weren't caught in the crush of tribes in Dacia.
I think AssyrianMelodies was talking about the formation of the Holy Roman Empire by the Franks. They did invade Roman territory in Belgium and northern France though.
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Old July 11th, 2013, 01:30 PM   #114
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I think AssyrianMelodies was talking about the formation of the Holy Roman Empire by the Franks. They did invade Roman territory in Belgium and northern France though.
Right, and Belgium is a long way from Dacia where the Sarmations and Huns were on one side of the Germanic tribes - and the Roman legions on the other.

The Franks had friendlies to their rear.
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Old July 11th, 2013, 02:00 PM   #115
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Right, and Belgium is a long way from Dacia where the Sarmations and Huns were on one side of the Germanic tribes - and the Roman legions on the other.

The Franks had friendlies to their rear.
They did? Vandals, Suevi/Alamanni, Alans? When and under what circumstances are you thinking?

I forgot the Saxons and tribal groups of Sarmation types, and even Burgundians. These guys all crossed the Rhine, and the Franks as federates attempted to help counter them. That was unsuccessful.

Last edited by pikeshot1600; July 11th, 2013 at 02:41 PM.
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Old July 11th, 2013, 02:06 PM   #116

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Right, and Belgium is a long way from Dacia where the Sarmations and Huns were on one side of the Germanic tribes - and the Roman legions on the other.

The Franks had friendlies to their rear.
The Hunnic Empire reached the Rhine, you know.
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Old July 11th, 2013, 02:23 PM   #117

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The Hunnic Empire reached the Rhine, you know.
Are you serious? I've never heard such a story.
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Old July 11th, 2013, 02:29 PM   #118
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Are you serious? I've never heard such a story.
Hun raiding parties did enter Gaul at times, however, the "empire" was in Pannonia. Chalons ended Hun advances in the west, so I guess they did reach Champagne, but it did them no good. The campaign that culminated at Chalons did see towns in Gaul and along the Rhine sacked.

Last edited by pikeshot1600; July 11th, 2013 at 02:36 PM.
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Old July 11th, 2013, 02:39 PM   #119
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They did? Vandals, Suevi/Alamanni, Alans? When and under what circumstances are you thinking?
When the Franks were creating their empire, the Vandals and Alans were in Africa and the Suevi/Alamanni were in Spain.

The Germanic tribes are divided by many historians into two groups, probably because the Romans saw them that way. The northern tribes assaulted the Roman limes from the north, across the Rhine. In 395, under pressure from the Franks, the Romans abandoned Trier which had been their strongpoint holding back the northern tribes for hundreds of years. To the Franks "rear" would mean to their north, where there were dozens of smaller tribes, all or most of which were allies of the Franks; beyond that were the low countries with settled tribes and then the North Sea. The Franks may have had skirmishes with the westbound Vandals briefly; as the Franks were sometimes acting as fedorati in the fifth century. I'm not sure on this point.

The Eastern Germanic tribes (Goths, Vandals, Ghepids, Victufali, Taifals, Lombards etc) were in a completely different situation, their rear faced east, and everything east of the Dniester was the Central Asian Steppe, which extended six thousand miles to the east and was teaming with Steppe Warrior tribes and tribal groups of every stripe, most of which were headed west.

Last edited by Dzung; July 11th, 2013 at 02:46 PM.
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Old July 11th, 2013, 02:46 PM   #120
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When the Franks were creating their empire, the Vandals and Alans were in Africa and the Suevi/Alamanni were in Spain.

The Germanic tribes are divided by many historians into two groups, probably because the Romans saw them that way. There were the tribes which assaulted the Roman limes from the north, across the Rhine. In 395, under pressure from the franks the Romans abandoned Trier which had been their strongpoint holding back the northern tribes for hundreds of years. To the Franks "rear" would mean to their north, where there were dozens of smaller tribes, all or most of which were allies of the Franks; beyond that were the low countries with settled tribes and then the North Sea. The Franks may have had skirmishes with the westbound Vandals briefly; as the Franks were sometimes acting as fedorati in the fifth century. I'm not sure on this point.

The Eastern Germanic tribes (Goths, Vandals, Ghepids, Victufali, Taifals, Lombards etc) were in a completely different situation, their rear faced east, and everything east of the Dniester was the Central Asian Steppe, which extended six thousand miles to the east and was teaming with Steppe Warrior tribes and tribal groups of every stripe.
So you are thinking of later, not 406 - 409 AD. See my edit to post # 115.

Yes, the Salian Franks at least were foederati from the mid 4th century until Clovis at the end of the 5th.

Last edited by pikeshot1600; July 11th, 2013 at 02:49 PM.
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