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Old November 10th, 2013, 05:15 AM   #11

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astronomy helped first farmers adapt agriculture to northern climates, and "explode" in population c.4800 BC ??

Radiocarbon dating places the construction of the site close to 4900 BC, while the style of the pottery shards associate it with the Stroke-ornamented ware culture of ca. 4700 BC, suggesting that the site remained in use during two or three centuries

Goseck circle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
a temporary recession (but not termination of existence) followed the 'great explosion' of Neolithic rondels around 4800/4700-4500 BC

Antiquity, Project Gallery: Kvt
farmers finally figured out, some 6700 years ago, how to adopt agricultural practices to the conditions prevailing in temperate Europe

polished stone axe heads … are thought to have been used for chopping wood, and their introduction … heralded widespread deforestation

Ian Tattersall. The World from Beginnings to 4000 BCE, p.114
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Old November 10th, 2013, 05:36 AM   #12

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>>Its Just Passing Time<<
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Originally Posted by Gile na Gile View Post
I used to have a 25ft long roll of wallpaper for early European migrations on the back of which was festooned a thousand leaping arrows, obscure tribes, some mythical, some not, question marks, hesitantly inserted dates, more question marks, mass migrations from a milliard separate folds complete with circled DNA haploid groups all ducking & weaving into one another in an increasingly blurred & chock-a bloc sea of green, blue, black and red ink ... psychiatrist took it plainly & correctly as exhibit A in corkscrew mania ... can't remember a blessed thing or any solid conclusion I came to other than it was the damned best bit of escapist fun I'd ever stumbled upon .. the "scroll" is scrunched up now behind the sofa along with a dozen other half filled projects of discovery; meanwhile the walls remain achingly bare.

Have fun.
No one uses our language better than you on these boards in my opinion Gile na Gile........i miss ya !.... please post more often .
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Old November 11th, 2013, 05:30 AM   #13

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working backwards through time...

i perceive that...

Basque of today...
derives from the Aquitanii of Caesar...
derives from the Atlantic Bronze Age of the 2nd millennium BC...
derives from the Bell Beaker culture of the 3rd millennium BC...
derives from the Neolithic megalith-constructing culture of the 4th millennium BC (see below)...

Ipso speculato, proto-Basque, alias Vasconic, can be attributed, to the neolithic of Atlantic Europe c.4000 BC, when massive migrations, of foreign farmers, were colonizing the continent. Parsimoniously, it makes much more sense -- since, as Ovid declares, "time devours all things" -- to attribute Vasconic, to those foreign farmers, i.e. the wave of immigrants immediately prior to the people who imposed Indo-European...

rather than supposing, that Vasconic was the language of the Lascaux cave painting paleolithic peoples, i.e. that Vasconic survived several successive major immigrations and linguistic-and-cultural upheavals.

Ipso speculato,
Vasconic = neolithic = foreign farmers = "Japheth-ite"
Vasconic language super-family:
  • Elamite
  • Sumerian
  • Pelasgian / Minoan / Cretan / Etruscan
  • Aquitanian
  • Basque
Note, if true, then Basque in the Pyrenees at present, is as related to (say) Sumerian in Iraq 5000 years ago; as modern Irish Goidelic is related to ancient Hittite, in Anatolia, 4000 years ago. Thus, that could account, for the difficulty in definitively identifying the disparate relic remnants, of the (alleged) Vasconic language super-family, scattered across space and time, in the historical written records, of the ANE and Europe.
Click the image to open in full size.
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Old November 11th, 2013, 06:17 AM   #14

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Nicholas Wade, in Before the Dawn (p.134), citing Roy King & Peter Underhill of Stanford University, wrote that the introduction of farming into Europe is extremely strongly associated with Y-DNA hg M172 (J), prominent in modern Anatolians presently living near Catal Hoyuk. And, Jean Manco, in Ancestral Journeys (ch.6), provides pictures, of the spread, of Y-DNA hg's J1 & J2, as well as of the spread of (specifically) dairy-dominated cattle-pastoralism, from the Sea of Marmara and Danube delta, along the coast of the Black Sea into southern Ukraine and the steppes of western Asia; and also up the Danube and across central Europe, from c.6000-4000 BC. Those pictures look allot like Marija Gimbutas' map, of the geographic distribution, and spread, of "kurgan" monumentally massive burial mounds (see below).

Logically, massive monumental mounds, requiring a considerable population to provide the manpower to make them; and which are situated at a single site, so suggesting sedentism of the mound makers; sounds much more like agriculture, than nomadic hunter-gatherers. Moreover, the "kurgans" of eastern Europe are nearly identical, to the neolithic-associated "barrows" of western Europe. And more, farmers are known to have carried culture up the Danube, to the British isles.

Ipso facto, monument making, e.g. monumental mound-like mausoleums for politically prominent persons (kurgans, barrows, dolmens); as well as circular structures for astronomical calendar-keeping purposes (Goseck-style circles, causewayed camps), could all be attributable, to neolithic farmers, who were then the prestige culture, whose neighbors sought to emulate them, and whose pottery, circular structures, massive mounds, farming, herding, and language (?) all probably imposed upon the previous population of the place.

Indeed, massive mounds for mausoleum tombs look allot like the tall tells, seen at cities in the ancient near east, where-with-in ancient farmers had been burying bodies, for thousands of years, e.g. Catal Hoyuk, cp. Out of Egypt - sins of the city. Plausibly, perhaps, ancient farmers, emigrating away from their former farming father-and-mother-lands, sought to associate themselves, to the presumable prestige, of even-then-ancient city settlement sites, associated with the first farmers. Those cities were then the largest on earth, and also the oldest on earth, so combining the prestige of Eridu + Ur + Uruk + New York City + Chicago. So, perhaps plausibly, as farmers migrated away from those prestigiously-tall tells, they sought to artificially recapitulate the appearance of prestige, by building burial mounds, of comparably colossal size, scale, and scope ??

All monumental construction seems associatable, much more to neolithic farming folks, and allot less to mesolithic foraging families. Maybe Marija Gimbutas got things basically backwards ?? Both circular structures associated w/ astronomy, and also massive mound making, both were from the first foreign farmers (not foragers) ?
Click the image to open in full size.
M.Gimbutas - Kurgan Culture - TurkicWorld
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Old November 11th, 2013, 06:55 AM   #15

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more evidence of "ancient Vasconic language super-family" ??

Ancient language discovered on clay tablets found amid ruins of 2800 year old Middle Eastern palace - Archaeology - Science - The Independent
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Old November 11th, 2013, 07:56 AM   #16
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maybe this will help your investigation

Old Europe (Vinca) language and culture in early layers of Serbian and Irish culture
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