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Old March 10th, 2014, 05:38 AM   #81

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Thanks for info Authun , i know it is easy to get misled by etymology.

see Idrisis 1154 map tabula Rogeriana however , bottom right hand corner , you can find the strange shaped Britain, showing London , Hastings , dover , dartford etc.....and then across the channel you can see Kent(Ghent?) near what i am guessing is Bruges ? whats your geography like ... does that look like it is close to where Ghent would be ???

Idrisi?s ?Tabula Rogeriana? World Map (1154)

hope that works , tried to copy paste the page but did not seem to work ?

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Old March 10th, 2014, 06:05 AM   #82
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The french name for Ghent is Gand and it is hypothesised that a romanised celtic word, Gandavum may have descibed the settlement here. There is no written record though. Ganda is a celtic word which would describe the confluence of the Lys and the Scheldt.

Kent is often explained as a celtic word meaning coastal region. Watts thinks it is probably corner of land or land on the edge.
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Old March 10th, 2014, 06:50 AM   #83

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OK Authun.......Not necessarily convinced though .....it is clearly spelled "Kent" not really shown near a confluence.. and even if it was migrants often call the place they come to after their original home. did Ghent come to Kent , or Kent go to Ghent.

with Ard Afrizia al Alamanin ( Frisian Allemania or Frisian/German territory ) close by........Ankbarda (langobards ?) Kamrai (Cambri ?) near territory marked Ard a Flandris al Afrang (Frankish Flanders ) and Normandia al Frang (Norman Franks ) further towards France ??
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Old March 10th, 2014, 07:21 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by ib-issi View Post
OK Authun.......Not necessarily convinced though .....it is clearly spelled "Kent" not really shown near a confluence.. and even if it was migrants often call the place they come to after their original home. did Ghent come to Kent , or Kent go to Ghent.
Exactly, there is probably no connection between Kent and Ghent at all. You are trying to force a fit based on nothing more than word similarity.

Gandavum is the confluence of the Scheldt and Lys and in the land of the Menapi.

Kent is described in roman sources as inhabited by Cantiaci. Their capital is Durovernum Cantiacorum, now Canterbury. They are bordered to their west by the Regnenses and to their north by the Catuvellauni. Caesar describes them thus:

"Of all these (British tribes), by far the most civilised are they who dwell in Kent, which is entirely a maritime region, and who differ but little from the Gauls in their customs".

Notice, Caesar says they similar to Gauls, not Belgic Menapi or Morini with whom he is already familiar. He mentions four of their kings, Segovax, Carvilius, Cingetorix and Taximagulus.
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Old March 10th, 2014, 08:10 AM   #85

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I doubt it --- since its on Mercator's Map of 1569 --- old man Bene A moved there in 1651.
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Old March 10th, 2014, 08:41 AM   #86

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Well i fail to see how a place in Belgium/Flanders shown clearly on the map of 1154 and spelled KENT , is me forcing a connection, it did not seem to take a lot of forcing ....KENT Belgium...KENT S.E.England
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Old March 10th, 2014, 09:03 AM   #87

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notice how some posters just refuse to work with "old" maps. I would think when a map from the medieval times says something, that is what they mean. I don't think we can take our "modern" hypocrisy and project it back to those times. I understand that "secrecy" in those days was used and is important but to create so much fuss over this.

If it says "Kent" ---- was there - anywhere - another "Kent". And these maps are the best the ancients did. The Idrisis Map of 1154 is dead on given that sometimes it took 2 years of more for information to get back to the mapper and that depended on the accuracy of the navigator. And that doesn't mention conflicting navigation information that mappers had to work with.


----------------
as a side note -- working with ancient maps is a pain to start with

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Old March 10th, 2014, 09:12 AM   #88

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Dirk Meier - I have downloaded his paper (27 pages ). and that picture showing the coast lines. WOW -- that's enough to throw someone off the track right there.

do you have any information on what the sea levels were at that time. i know the map shows islands appearing and disappearing, but it doesn't show the extend of "brackish" water for your "salt flats".


and do you have access to the "whole" coast showing the same water level changes. This would also completely change the water levels, tidal surge, etc etc of the Thames.
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Old March 10th, 2014, 10:15 AM   #89
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do you have any information on what the sea levels were at that time. i know the map shows islands appearing and disappearing, but it doesn't show the extend of "brackish" water for your "salt flats".


and do you have access to the "whole" coast showing the same water level changes. This would also completely change the water levels, tidal surge, etc etc of the Thames.
These changes are so frequent in the north sea, no single source will cover them all. The North Sea Marine Transgressions for both the Humber and the Fens are one topic and the three Dunkirk Marine Transgressions cover Belgium and the Netherlands from the end of the roman period. Dunkirk 2 is generally seen as contemporary with the Humber marine transgression at the end of the roman period, see Archaeology and Coastal Change in the Netherlands

For the frisian, danish and north german coastal changes, the Lancewad Project have produced many excellent maps. The one below shows terp dwelling mounds in Dithmarshen, an area just the the north of the Elbe estuary. The blue dots are dwelling mounds at the time of the roman period, the red ones during the medeival period. Note how they move in lines. The solid red lines are the start of the dyke building period.

dithmarschen.jpg


This is because the terps are built on the edge of the marsh and, as the coast line changes, they have to move.

Click the image to open in full size.

There are many articles and maps which you can download from this page on the Lancewad project:

Lancewadplan Download

and dirk meier has made some of his work available as downloads in english, but gernerally just look around. Even his german downloads have excellent maps, photos and illustrations:

Dr. Dirk Meier // Küstenarchäologie: Forschung
Dr. Dirk Meier // Küstenarchäologie: English Info
Dr. Dirk Meier // Küstenarchäologie: Downloads/Info
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Old March 10th, 2014, 01:47 PM   #90
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Well i fail to see how a place in Belgium/Flanders shown clearly on the map of 1154 and spelled KENT , is me forcing a connection, it did not seem to take a lot of forcing ....KENT Belgium...KENT S.E.England
Because it is not called Kent by romans, it is Cantium. Kent is much more recent. Ghent is not called Kent before this map of 1154 as far as I know. It is called Gand, or Ganda. The fact that one person has written the two down in the same way in 1154 does not detract from the fact that the two names had been different before.

The kingdom at the time of Æthelberht was Cant and it is referred to as Cantwarena at the time of the Tribal Hidage. What is Gand referred to by the Merovingians?
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