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Old February 27th, 2014, 12:19 PM   #1

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Did Christians Replace Christian for Isis in Tacitus' Report?e


In his book...

The Great Fire of Rome: The Fall of the Emperor Nero and His City: Stephen Dando-Collins: 9780306818905: Amazon.com: Books
The Great Fire of Rome: The Fall of the Emperor Nero and His City: Stephen Dando-Collins: 9780306818905: Amazon.com: Books


Dando-Collins theorises that the account of Tacitus that deals with the aftermath of the Great Fire of Rome in 64 was actually about the members of the cult of Isis being punished and that later Christians substituted their own name in it's place to give Christians a early presence in Rome when in fact they were not yet there in any worthwhile numbers.

What do we know about the cult of Isis in early Rome? Could this have any validity?
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Old February 27th, 2014, 03:19 PM   #2

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Isis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Isis in the Roman Empire

Quote:
Tacitus writes that after the assassination of Julius Caesar, a temple in honour of Isis had been decreed, but was suspended by Augustus as part of his program to restore traditional Roman religion. The emperor Caligula, however, was open to Eastern religions, and the Navigium Isidis, a procession in honor of Isis, was established in Rome during his reign.[21] According to the Jewish historian Josephus, Caligula donned female garb and took part in the mysteries he instituted. Vespasian, along with Titus, practised incubation in the Roman Iseum. Domitian built another Iseum along with a Serapeum. In a relief on the Arch of Trajan in Rome, the emperor appears before Isis and Horus, presenting them with votive offerings of wine.[21] Hadrian decorated his villa at Tibur with Isiac scenes. Galerius regarded Isis as his protector.[22]

The religion of Isis thus spread throughout the Roman Empire during the formative centuries of Christianity.

Wall paintings and objects reveal her pervasive presence at Pompeii, preserved by the eruption of Vesuvius in 79 CE. In Rome, temples were built and obelisks erected in her honour. In Greece, the cult of Isis was introduced to traditional centres of worship in Delos, Delphi, Eleusis and Athens, as well as in northern Greece. Harbours of Isis were to be found on the Arabian Sea and the Black Sea. Inscriptions show followers in Gaul, Spain, Pannonia, Germany, Arabia, Asia Minor, Portugal and many shrines even in Britain.[23] Tacitus interprets a goddess among the Germanic Suebi as a form of Isis whose symbol (signum) was a ship.[24] Bruce Lincoln regards the identity of this Germanic goddess as "elusive."[25]

The Greek antiquarian Plutarch wrote a treatise on Isis and Osiris,[26] a major source for Imperial theology concerning Isis.[12] Plutarch describes Isis as

"a goddess exceptionally wise and a lover of wisdom, to whom, as her name at least seems to indicate,
knowledge and understanding are in the highest degree appropriate... ."

The statue of Athena in Sais was identified with Isis, and according to Plutarch was inscribed

"I am all that has been, and is, and shall be, and my robe no mortal has yet uncovered."[27
BEFORE Ἶσις I AM?




Also see: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...y%3Disis-bio-1

Quote:

Herodotus, Histories, 2.42
Flavius Josephus, Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.4
Pausanias, Description of Greece, 10.32
Pausanias, Description of Greece, 2.4.7
Appian, Civil Wars, 4.6.47
Tacitus, Annales, 2.85
Tacitus, Historiae, 3.74
Suetonius, Tiberius, 36
Martial, Epigrammata, 12.19
Martial, Epigrammata, 12.29
Diodorus, Historical Library, 1.12
Diodorus, Historical Library, 1.14
Diodorus, Historical Library, 1.27
Diodorus, Historical Library, 5.69

Last edited by Kookaburra Jack; February 27th, 2014 at 03:30 PM.
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Old February 27th, 2014, 05:22 PM   #3

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What evidence does he present for this?
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Old February 28th, 2014, 10:26 AM   #4

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Originally Posted by Kirialax View Post
What evidence does he present for this?
None really just his opinion.
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Old February 28th, 2014, 10:28 AM   #5

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jax View Post
None really just his opinion.
He doesn't even say what made him come up with the theory? Way to justify critics, Dando-Collins.
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Old February 28th, 2014, 10:31 AM   #6

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Originally Posted by okamido View Post
He doesn't even say what made him come up with the theory? Way to justify critics, Dando-Collins.
Yeah, as an author I found him a little sketchy.
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Old February 28th, 2014, 06:11 PM   #7

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Did the "Church Industry" forge manuscripts in the past?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jax View Post
What do we know about the cult of Isis in early Rome? Could this have any validity?
What do we know about the "sudden and serendipitous discovery" of the Tacitus manuscript by the "Church Organisation" in its "archives"?

Well the way I look at it is this. The "Church Organisation" has been directly responsible for Latin manuscript forgery mills in its history, along with torture, execution, inquisition, genocide and other atrocities. The classic forgery mill exposed to-date is the 9th century Pseudo-Isidore's hangout within Corby Abbey, one of the leading academic (and "Church Organisation") hangouts in Carolingian France, conspicuous in its use of the
Carolingian_minuscule Carolingian_minuscule

SEE FURTHER:

Pseudo-Isidorian Decretals
Reading Pseudo-Isidore Blog: Eric Knibbs


Now it is certainly true that most historians accept that this "suddenly discovered" manuscript represents an authentic manuscript which was subject to the "Immaculate Transmission" from the desk of Tacitus.

Some of these historians may even be aware of various "problems" with this Tacitus manuscript:

1) Some past authors/investigators have claimed this to be a forgery.

2) No source explicitly mentions that this "Christian reference" existed in Tacitus between the 2nd century and the 15th century, despite masses of "Ecclesiastical Histories" being compiled.

3) Ultraviolet light of the oldest 11th century, copy of the Annals in Florence reveals scribal tampering - alteration of "Chrestians" to "Christians".

4) The separate case of the Pliny-Trajan letter correspondence in which another "Christian reference" supposedly occurs. The nine book Pliny tradition is well attested until a tenth book is "suddenly discovered" in the 15th century, incorporated into the Aldus printing output, and then "suddenly is lost".


Was the "Church Industry of antiquity and the middle ages ORWELLIAN?


Start by reading Ammianus Marcellinus BOOK XIX (19), Chapter XII (7).

Did this organisation understand that by controlling the past they could control the future?

I think it is possible that they used forgeries in order to control the past and the perceptions of the past not just at the time, but in the centuries to follow. How much power did the "Church Industry" of the 15th century have relative to any free-thinking academics? When did the Heresy Laws cease and the "Blasphemy Laws" of nation and state commence?


WHY do contemporary historians have no open reservations about the "Tacitus Reference to ChrEstians"?

Why do historians in general trust the "Church Industry" to "suddenly discover" important and authentic historical manuscripts in their archives, when we know that they were about as corrupt as you could get?


Is it a case of "History repeats itself; historians repeat each other." ~ Philip Guedalla (1889-1956)




Or is it the case of .....

"It has been said that though God cannot alter the past, historians can;
it is perhaps because they can be useful to Him in this respect
that He tolerates their existence
."

~ Samuel Butler (1835-1902)
Erewhon Revisited






"One is never simple-minded enough about the condemnation of forgeries.
Pious frauds are frauds, for which one must show no piety - and no pity."

ON PAGANS, JEWS, and CHRISTIANS
--- Arnaldo Momigliano, 1987


Chapter 1:
Biblical Studies and Classical Studies
Simple Reflections upon Historical Method

Last edited by Kookaburra Jack; February 28th, 2014 at 06:20 PM.
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