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Old April 16th, 2014, 02:45 AM   #11

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Originally Posted by Salah View Post
How so, and when did this come to pass? What did the "Byzantine Empire" call itself?
The holy Roman empire called itself holy, roman and an empire as well while it was neither of the three. I don't think the name should be all to decisive here.

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476. The Byzantine Empire was a far differently culturally and socially than the Empire Augustus founded.
The western Roman empire of 476 was also far different both culturally and socially to the empire Augustus founded.

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Old April 16th, 2014, 03:23 AM   #12

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Originally Posted by Salah View Post
How so, and when did this come to pass? What did the "Byzantine Empire" call itself?
Robert Browning - The Byzantine Empire (1992)
Though Greek was the mother tongue of most of the inhabitants of Constantinople and the lingua franca of all of them, the imperial government clung tenaciously to Latin as the language of the state and the mark of its Roman origin. The high officers of state transacted their business in Latin, the army was commanded in Latin, laws were promulgated in Latin. No emperor was more passionately attached to the traditions of Roman universalism than Justinian, the codifier and restorer of Roman law. Yet he was the first emperor to issue the majority of his laws in Greek, the language of the greater part of his subjects. His successors followed his example, and the Latin facade of court and government grew thinner. Finally, about the time of his victory over the Persians, Heraclius dropped the resounding traditional Latin imperial titles, and called himself in official acts and proclamations simply basileus or king....from the end of the reign of Heraclius, the Roman Empire had become Greek in language at all levels

The East Roman Empire was thus already fully Greek by ~641AD (excluding coinage) and the first Turkish (Seljuk) sultanate in Anatolia was called the Sultanate of Rum (Rome). The history of the 'Holy Roman Empire' begins in 962AD when the Pope (John XII) crowned Otto I (the Great) as imperator augustus but the title imperium Romanum was used from Conrad II onwards (11th century) and the title sacrum Romanum imperium only dates to the 13th century;
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Old April 16th, 2014, 12:14 PM   #13
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Justinian was the last Emperor who spoke Latin, with his death the West became completely unrecoverable. But they were still calling themselves Romans in the East and had been ever since the Edict of Caracalla which granted Roman citizenship to every freedman in the Empire. They thought of Constantinople as being the vital center of what was still a Roman world long after the fall of Rome, trading on Roman roads and following Roman law enforced by the East Roman Army.

It provided an important bulwark against the rising force of Islam, inadvertently sheltering the development of Christianity in Europe for a millennia, with Heraclius mounting an effort akin to the Punic Wars of some 800 years before. Even after Constantinople eventually fell in 1453, people fleeing the city escaped west to Italy and sparked the Renaissance, and those fleeing east came to Moscovy, sometimes called the Third Rome, the Russian Orthodox Church taking over for the Byzantine Orthodox one. Like the Holy See in Rome, it continues to wield considerable influence to this day.

So in a way, though vastly changed, the Roman Empire never really fell.
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Old April 17th, 2014, 03:19 AM   #14
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The main Roman religion, Roman Catholicism, remains intact to date. That part of the Roman Empire has not fallen and is not showing any signs of falling anytime soon.
Well, there has been quite a shortage of priests lately, indicating few people take that stuff seriously enough anymore to be willing to accept the necessary sacrifices. If or when secularism continues to advance, the holy joes could end up like thescelosaurus.
The Roman Empire was essentially gone by about 700 CE. Constantinople still held out but it no longer had an empire.
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Old April 17th, 2014, 05:29 AM   #15

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476 is only a 'nominal moment' as the aptly-named Theodoric points out. You can either take Salah's point about 1461 or except that it was a slow and gradual disappearance.

For example parts of Spain and France were nominally 'Imperial' whilst others were not. I'm reading an account of the Suavo kingdom in Spain (5th/6th centuries) and at various times they are negotiating with the Imperial power which may be the imperial presence in Tarragona province, Rome's envoy in France, the Visigoths themselves or the Goths in Italy (Ostrogoths).

Theodoric the Great was of course very strong as an heir to the Emperor and held sway over the Visigothic areas too. You could argue the Empire was carrying on. Ironically it was the Eastern Empire under Justinian the Great that finally finished off the Ostrogoths who had inherited the western Empire.

If you want a specific date 1461 is the only option.
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Old April 17th, 2014, 05:48 AM   #16

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When do you think the Roman Empire fell? Thanks.
The Roman Empire fell in 1204 when the Crusaders sacked Constantinople. The city was one of the very last places in the Roman Empire that had never fallen to an outside enemy (the only other I can think of is Thessalonica).

Although the Byzantines recaptured the city in 1261, the Empire wasn't really so much the Roman Empire anymore - instead it was basically the Empire of Nicaea, plus Constantinople.
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Old April 17th, 2014, 07:00 AM   #17

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The Roman Empire fell in 1204 when the Crusaders sacked Constantinople. The city was one of the very last places in the Roman Empire that had never fallen to an outside enemy (the only other I can think of is Thessalonica).
Thessalonica was sacked in 904 and again in 1185.
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Old April 17th, 2014, 07:05 AM   #18
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Sigh Roman Catholicism is not the religion of the Roman Empire, at all. It is funny to see people get caught up by "Roman" though. The actual church would be Orthodox, but even that is markedly different from its inception nowadays.

Rome as a polity fell gradually some times in the middle ages. Look at the bottom under "similar threads" it's amazing how often this comes up. Seriously.
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Old April 17th, 2014, 09:16 AM   #19

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Sigh Roman Catholicism is not the religion of the Roman Empire, at all. It is funny to see people get caught up by "Roman" though. The actual church would be Orthodox, but even that is markedly different from its inception nowadays.

Rome as a polity fell gradually some times in the middle ages. Look at the bottom under "similar threads" it's amazing how often this comes up. Seriously.
I am not sure I understand your argument. The Orthodox Church branched off in 1054, and was anti-Latin and anti-Rome branch in its inception. If you are simply going to argue that they didn't originally call the Church the Roman Catholic Church, you are just arguing semantics.
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Old April 17th, 2014, 09:22 AM   #20
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1453 AD as a Nation.
628 AD as a culture
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