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Old November 30th, 2014, 11:00 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Bart Dale View Post
I could not agree with you less. The richest, most advance countries in the world are Christian (or post Christian)
Such as Japan ? Or Singapore ? Or South Korea ? Or very soon China ?

Not all rich countries are "christian" and not all "christian" countries are rich

This said no single factor destroyed Rome. The best that can be said is that christianity perhaps did have a negative influence but on its own did not cause the fall of the Roman empire
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Old November 30th, 2014, 11:41 PM   #22
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Such as Japan ? Or Singapore ? Or South Korea ? Or very soon China ?

Not all rich countries are "christian" and not all "christian" countries are rich
Like the US, Gernany, Switzerland, France, Britain. Of the countries that make up the permanent members of the UN Security council, exactly one country wasn't a Christian country. Only Japan has a living standard comparable to the standard of Western Europe and US and Australia, although Korea and Singapore are closing fast. living standards still have a way to go in China to match the
West.


To date, the vast majority of international standards, from aviation, to broadcast, to calendars and longitude designation, were created in the west. International business businessmen wear western style suits, not Mandarin robes. the Christian countries of that were part of the Roman empire have a higher litefacy rate than the non Christian countries previously part of the Roman empire.
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Old December 1st, 2014, 01:01 AM   #23
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It created an intolerant division with intent of deleting divisions.
After Christianity was addopted it was impossible to integrate foreign tribes as it was previously possible, with their Gods and traditions being added to Roman.

The population concentrated more onto the next life, rather than current one, so people didnt really care about preserving the empire as much as they cared for salvation of their souls, transfering their ultimate loyalty from the empire/Rome to God/heaven

A lot of previous wisdom was seen as filthy pagan devilwork, which caused a scientific stagnation, which culminated in dark ages.
This can be important factor. Something similar happened in Grand Duchy of Lithuania. While Lithuanians were pagans they ruled huge Orthodox territory and population without much trouble. Noblemen who went to rule cities usually would adopt Christianity while on post, but remain quite pagan for returns home, religious minorities were not persecuted. Jews were invited I think on more than one occasion (for selfish reasons, but still), Muslim and caraim Tatars were invited and settled close to capital. When Lithuanians adopted Catholicism in 15-the century they almost immediately begun to have problems with orthodox Christians. So relaxed pagan religion can be beneficial for multicultural empire and Christianity may be detrimental.
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Old December 1st, 2014, 01:11 AM   #24

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The monotheistic nature of Christianity destroyed everything beautiful about Roman culture - because there could no longer be any other Gods, temples, cults of priests. All that made antiquity beautiful was washed away by a singular faith.
I would recommend a visit to Ravenna.
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Old December 1st, 2014, 02:48 AM   #25

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I could not agree with you less. The richest, most advance countries in the world are Christian (or post Christian) and in terms of artwork, what was produced by Christian countries is at least the equal of pagan works. In terms of science, the Christian world is far more advanced in every wayt than the pagan world. You may prefer to watching gladiators fight to the death typical i, but I prefer todays world. I also prefer today's world where the majority of the people are literate to the pagan world where even at its best the majority of people couldn't read. The work of Christian missionaries were active in promoting literacy among previously illiterate societies. The Irish were illiterate before Christianity, as were the Slavic nations, to name a few.

Pagan religions never promoted literacy among the common person, Christianity most certainly did (Protestant version anyways). Perhaps you miss the days where you could rape little children that pagan religions sanctify, or kill and sacrifice unwanted children without a second thought, as the pagan religions you admire so much allowed. When I look at today's society, ills and all, I will still take it over the pagan society in a heart beat - I think a life span of 70 years better than 30, infant mortality rate less than 1% versus 25%..
I fear that you are not giving the Pagan world their proper dues. There were a great many seats of learning and education in the old world. For instance, the Library of Alexandria. And let us not forget the ancient Egyptians, who - polytheists as they were - were a highly advanced civilisation.
But let us say that paganism is, as you seem to be believe, worthless to the pursuit of learning and knowledge. Even if that were so, it does not change the fact that people deserve Gods they can relate to.

In my country, we had our own Gods and beliefs. We were a warrior culture, and incorporated headhunting into our theology. When the Romans came, we deified the Thames, which supplies us with food, and upon which ships come to trade. That, in essence, is the beauty of polytheism to me. The Gods match the people.

Christianity, in contrast, represents uniformity. All people, no matter how divergent their histories or values, must suddenly pay homage to this Palestinian carpenter and his foreign ideas and quarrels. That is not beauty, and that is not culture, it's something closer to assimilation.
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Old December 1st, 2014, 04:29 AM   #26

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Originally Posted by Bart Dale View Post
Like the US, Gernany, Switzerland, France, Britain. Of the countries that make up the permanent members of the UN Security council, exactly one country wasn't a Christian country. Only Japan has a living standard comparable to the standard of Western Europe and US and Australia, although Korea and Singapore are closing fast. living standards still have a way to go in China to match the
West.


To date, the vast majority of international standards, from aviation, to broadcast, to calendars and longitude designation, were created in the west. International business businessmen wear western style suits, not Mandarin robes. the Christian countries of that were part of the Roman empire have a higher litefacy rate than the non Christian countries previously part of the Roman empire.
Most of the countries you counted behave pagan and have pagan values rather than christian. When Europe was abiding by Christian values, it was called Dark ages. I will let you guess why
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Old December 1st, 2014, 05:39 AM   #27

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Europe 'abided by Christian values' through the medieval period and into the last century; it doesn't seem to have held it back!
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Old December 1st, 2014, 07:06 AM   #28

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I'm sure we've had this question plenty of times, however I can't find them, and we have a few new people to contribute.

See my posts in e.g. the thread on the earlier fall of the western empire. Of course christianity didn't directly "destroy" Rome, but there does appear to be a correlation between the triumph of christianity and the fatal weakening of empire--especially the more targeted west. And IMO the correlation is real. It's perfectly logical that the increasingly christian population didn't support the Empire with the same determination as previous generations of (pagan) citizens. It's not just that many christians were pacifistic--christian writers like Tertullian and Hippolytus opposed service. After all the years of persecution and abuse by the Roman State, I doubt many christians, so relatively soon after it ended, were willing to fight like crazy for said state. It's not surprising that the empire relied more on barbarian troops once christianity became predominant. Many christians refused to serve and even many of those who did weren't very good soldiers. There's actual evidence for this like Martin of Tours. There had to have been a very serious recruiting problem beginning around the time christianity became really widespread--around the time/aftermath of Adrianople. The Romans themselves btw were long aware that christianity could cause such problems. They tried just about everything but finally had to try to accomodate the holy joes as best they could--partly through nonsense propaganda like the second pilate gospel. But it didn't do much good. The empire was largely abandoned by its new christian populace.

Btw sorry OT but I don't know if people here have discussed the interesting, to me, subject of Roman battle sarcophagi:
Starman's Future Visions
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Old December 1st, 2014, 07:16 AM   #29
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Like the US, Gernany, Switzerland, France, Britain. Of the countries that make up the permanent members of the UN Security council, exactly one country wasn't a Christian country. Only Japan has a living standard comparable to the standard of Western Europe and US and Australia, although Korea and Singapore are closing fast. living standards still have a way to go in China to match the
West.


.
So how do you explain the pagan japanese being so successful ?

And if you had taken that snapshot 1000 years ago, Islam would have come first... and 1000 years before that Roman gods seemed the way to go . And 1000 years before that, well Egyptian gods were the sure bet according to your criteria

Religion has nothing to do with generating economic prosperity... It can however hold it back
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Old December 1st, 2014, 07:31 AM   #30
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Europe 'abided by Christian values' through the medieval period and into the last century; it doesn't seem to have held it back!
Ah, the medieval period in Europe was a resounding sucess in your opinion ?
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