Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > Themes in History > Art and Cultural History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Art and Cultural History Art and Cultural History Forum - Music, Literature, Mythology, Visual Arts, Sports, Popular Culture


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old May 30th, 2010, 11:56 PM   #91

Bismarck's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Dec 2009
From: rangiora
Posts: 2,847
Re: Impact of Woodstock ('69) on American Culture.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Krystian View Post
I am sorry, i thought i was arguing with someone who regarded himself as a christian, that's why i quoted the Bible. And you also said it was just my christianity that condemned homosexuality, so i wonder what kind of Christianity that doesn't were you talking about. If your worldview is a mixture of Christianity and liberal values than ok, but don't say Christianity itself hold these liberal values such as tolerance for homosexuality, because it doesn't.
I'll think you will find there are plenty of xtians who do not condemn homosexuality - there are even some churches that ordain openly gay clergy. Like I said, it is your fundamentalist xtianity that condemns it, not mine. Or do you think that only your church has the right to appropriate the name of Jesus Christ?

Quote:
About prostitution - if you look at it like a robot without emotions than yes - it is not rape because both adults agree to do it. If you look like a human at the reasons most women do it and how they feel about it (especially in the beginning) the picture is quite different and there is certainly nothing good about it.
Que? Come again? Women do it to make money, which is the same reason most people work. I dont see any evil in that.

Quote:
To say it is not against Christianity is even more ridiculous than your statements about homosexuality and Christianity.
No it isn't.

Quote:
Here are the articles, which actually come from sites of your fellow atheists and are supposed to be "good news" for people like you :
Ah yes, I remember it now. Unfortunately, there is not much I can say about it, simply because it is all based on hearsay. No actual evidence or examples are provided.

Quote:
According to this report, the Right Reverend Paul Richardson said declining church attendance and the rise in multiculturalism meant that “Christian Britain is dead”.
It is still just one man's opinion and the statistics he provide dont provide evidence of a declining faith in God - they provide evidence for declining church attendance or fewer church baptisms.

Quote:
with a fall from more than one million to 880,000.
Do you think it fair that the church-going habits of approximately 100,000 people determine whether or not a country is god-fearing or not?

Quote:
In part of a special series on the secularization of Europe, Fox News ran this segment trashing the Netherlands. The clip uses Fox News's frequent method of attributing its judgments to "some observers" and "people." One such quote from about halfway through the segment:

"They have become what some observers say is militantly secular, ridiculing anyone who holds religion as important and shunning all public displays of faith."

And be sure to stay tuned for this quote at the end that typifies the Fox News approach:

"After euthanasia and infanticide, the next move in the Netherlands is probably a suicide pill, not for those who are terminally ill, but just tired with life. While it hasn't been legalized and is probably still several years off, people are already talking about the idea."
This is a piece of propaganda - hardly worthy of being called 'evidence' in a serious discussion. You, yourself, undermine its potential to persuade by highlighting Fox's propensity to use unattributable sources.

Quote:
Notice how this last assertion that "people are already talking about the idea" is self-authenticating...
explain?
Bismarck is offline  
Remove Ads
Old June 1st, 2010, 06:38 PM   #92
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,406
Re: Impact of Woodstock ('69) on American Culture.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bismarck View Post
I'll think you will find there are plenty of xtians who do not condemn homosexuality - there are even some churches that ordain openly gay clergy. Like I said, it is your fundamentalist xtianity that condemns it, not mine. Or do you think that only your church has the right to appropriate the name of Jesus Christ?
There were plenty of people in history who claimed to be Christians and did things like murder, theft, adultery etc. justifying it somehow so that it wouldn't look anti-christian. Yet the Bible says quite clear what Jesus Christ's opinion on those things was and nomatter how you twists his words it won't change. The same thing applies for homosexuality, which is clearly condemned in the Bible and no matter how much the protestant sects embrace liberalism and modernism thinking this will save them from the growing atheism, the fact won't change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bismarck View Post
Que? Come again? Women do it to make money, which is the same reason most people work. I dont see any evil in that.
Dealers of child pornography also simply "do it to make money" and many of them actually enjoy it (unlike most prostitutes), and yet we find that kind of business immoral. Why? Hasn't pedophilia existed always and won't it exist forever? Then why fight it and not allow it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bismarck View Post
This is a piece of propaganda - hardly worthy of being called 'evidence' in a serious discussion. You, yourself, undermine its potential to persuade by highlighting Fox's propensity to use unattributable sources.
Well you haven't given any evidence to support your theory that Holland is actually a christian country where christian values prevail, so at least i've given some for of evidence.
Krystian is offline  
Old June 1st, 2010, 06:48 PM   #93

Edgewaters's Avatar
Contrarian
 
Joined: Jul 2007
From: Canada
Posts: 9,026
Re: Impact of Woodstock ('69) on American Culture.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Krystian View Post
The same thing applies for homosexuality, which is clearly condemned in the Bible
It's only a very selective reading of the Bible that allows one to take issue with homosexuality but not, say, worshipping the cross (which, technically, is a far more grave sin).
Edgewaters is offline  
Old June 1st, 2010, 07:55 PM   #94

Bismarck's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Dec 2009
From: rangiora
Posts: 2,847
Re: Impact of Woodstock ('69) on American Culture.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Krystian View Post
...
Well you haven't given any evidence to support your theory that Holland is actually a christian country where christian values prevail, so at least i've given some for of evidence.
Click the image to open in full size.

I've got nothing more to say on this...
Bismarck is offline  
Old June 2nd, 2010, 03:49 AM   #95
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,406
Re: Impact of Woodstock ('69) on American Culture.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bismarck View Post
Click the image to open in full size.

I've got nothing more to say on this...
True - you haven't got anything to say from the start, so at least you admit it now.
Krystian is offline  
Old June 2nd, 2010, 06:02 AM   #96

DAS44's Avatar
Scholar
 
Joined: Feb 2010
From: Yaller Dawg
Posts: 565
Re: Impact of Woodstock ('69) on American Culture.


Did this seriously turn into an argument on the "godlessness" of Holland?

sheesh...

No I didn't read through all of the score of lengthy posts.
DAS44 is offline  
Old June 2nd, 2010, 06:20 AM   #97

Richard Stanbery's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Jan 2009
From: Tennessee
Posts: 8,298
Re: Impact of Woodstock ('69) on American Culture.


Das is right....Lets get back into orbit a little with this thread, shall we please?

Is it fair to conclude that Woodstock was pretty much about youthful rebellion against a staid and ideologically oppressive parent generation?

So, when did youth rebellion start? It isnt found in ancient texts, is it? I mean, there is a gargantuan difference between youthful exuberance that has always been around, and what was going on in 1969.

Maybe it was the level of organization and intensity that mass media brought to the table?

Did youth rebellion just develop as a by-product of Victorian society and strict repression? or was the rebellion of 1969 a labratory experiment that started at No 2 Derzhinski Square (Moscow-KGB) and and ran its course as part of a Cold War communist conspiracy to lead young Americans away from our mother culture and sew confusion and discord (weaken us)?

I would have to say that if that was the case...it has been successful above anyones wildest expectations.

If it wasnt just that, then it might have been just the "unwinding of an over-tightened spring" that came about as a result of rejections of Victorians stiffling social mores. Victorianism had ran its course, and the backlash happened.

But, the timeline doesnt make sense? I mean, the 1950s were very square and conformist. The 1960s were not. 1960 saw a continuation of the conformity of the 50s. By 1965, the squareness was going away. Everything started happening in 5 years?

The older generations did a lot to build up America, but the values of the older generations had an Achilles heal, and that was racism. So when racism came under ideological and legal assault in the 1960s (and lost) then that made the rest of Victorian values look suspicious, didnt it?

So, what do you think? Was there a plot by the KGB, or more of a "Perfect Storm" of social pressures and the repudiation of older values that came togather in the late 1960s?

Look out, here comes one of those rare instances when I let my shield down for a moment and talk about how I really feel. And there are some strong memories and hurts that still linger from within me. Im not at all in love with what the status quo of that era's thinking was (squareness-forced conformity). I was a huge rebel in my youth, and I still have my long hair and snarling, rebellious visage. I may not always know where Im going, but Ill get there in the way that I know is right. My faith is my guide. Square-ness and coldness isnt where I want to go, or lead a return of society to that uglyness of the 1960s that the youth rebellion opposed.

I mean..lets face it. There really was some mean spirited, selfish, racist, sexist, anti-fun...buttholes running around in the "normal" society in the late 1960s, putting people down, selling each other down the road for a buck, taking for granted thier wives and kids....Its like coldness and self-centeredness had found a home and settled into American culture, and the young people were just expected to fall into thier ordered place.

And the Christian religion was used to prop up all of this. (Actually, Christianity is pretty much about rebellion from this sort of thing) And that was the seeming status quo of ther 1960s American culture. Everybody was expected to stay in thier place. It had a de-humanizing effect. It really did.

Listen to the words of this song from that era. I think it sheds some light on the thinking and underlying causes...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s5r2spPJ8g"]YouTube - Harry Chapin Cats in the Cradle (Soundstage)[/ame]

But the trouble is that, the rejection of the "plastic society" of the 1960s didnt lead into a better, or more caring society. It just led to a chaos and more of an openess to mean-ness. We are no better off for it. Was it all in vain?

Last edited by Richard Stanbery; June 2nd, 2010 at 06:53 AM.
Richard Stanbery is offline  
Old June 2nd, 2010, 08:26 PM   #98

skizzerflake's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Mar 2010
From: Baltimore, Maryland
Posts: 2,141
Re: Impact of Woodstock ('69) on American Culture.


Richard - That's a lot of questions to answer. Generational friction is as old as humans, but the 1960's were one of those special times that happens every several generations. It was special because of the chasm in the experiences of the generations. The GI generation was born into a rural country and had lived through the Depression and WW II and had emerged into a completely changed post-war world. They had "done their duty" during WW II and built a lot of the world we live in now. For them conformity and following the rules were the price of the new world and compared to what had been before, the price was well worth it.

On the other hand, the Boomers had grown up in a fairly peaceful and prosperous USA, got an education early and learned to be skeptical of governments telling them what to do. The conflict was a collision waiting to happen...challenging Viet Nam, being exposed to wide cultural differences, psychedelic drugs...all this was a perfect storm. One of the great ironies of the era was that the guys who introduced the boomers to LSD had been given it themselves by the government or military, who viewed it as potential weapon...if only they had known. If there's any truth to theories about generational cycles, the "Woodstock Nation" sure is a big piece of evidence. I actually don't think of Woodstock as as an influence as much as a consequence of what had already happened...an accidental consequence that would never happen again and an illustration of a huge cultural change that we still don't really understand and that is still playing out. I don't think it's over yet, so we can't pass judgment on whether it worked or was right.
skizzerflake is offline  
Reply

  Historum > Themes in History > Art and Cultural History

Tags
american, culture, impact, woodstock



Search tags for this page
Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
THE IMPACT OF THE DEVSHIRME cannelidis1 Middle Eastern and African History 75 March 24th, 2014 08:13 AM
Greater Legion Impact okamido Ancient History 8 December 19th, 2009 10:44 AM
Ideologies and their impact wid116 European History 5 December 9th, 2009 10:58 AM
How big was Napoleons impact on America? chiyeung General History 13 May 24th, 2009 04:06 PM
what weapon had the greatest impact on warfare? old_abe War and Military History 180 May 8th, 2009 06:05 PM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.