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Old October 16th, 2016, 01:03 PM   #51

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Originally Posted by Linschoten View Post
Well it's good to know that the sight of 'some handsome women' compensated him to some extent for having to listen to all that tosh! I believe that it only at that time that women rather than boys began to play the female roles, which have been most gratifying for Pepys.
If only we could somehow go back in time and see that production of the play and also watch Sam and his antics. It would not surprise me if he got ejected for groping the Restoration ice cream ladies as they were selling their wares.

Quote:
Originally Posted by annelouise17 View Post
His songs are poetry but they are also stories as well. I know most of his songs though Joan Baez.
I agree with that, but strictly speaking lyrics and literature, although closely tied, are separate genres and for me much as I love Bob he simply does not fulfil the criteria that should be required to meet the standards expected for a Nobel prize for literature. The late Allen Ginsburg who started the push for Dylan to receive this award would not agree, but Bob was first and foremost a musician who penned extraordinarily powerful lyrics and that is how he should be remembered.

Once Bob goes perhaps he and Joan will move to their new cosmic address in a big yellow taxi.

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Old October 16th, 2016, 02:14 PM   #52

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Another Dylan classic :

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Old October 17th, 2016, 05:57 AM   #53

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"They say sing while you slave and I just get bored
I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more."

He rhymed "bored" with "more".

That's the mark of an artist.
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Old October 17th, 2016, 06:22 AM   #54

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But it's a song, the near-rhyme can suffice in a song; I think his lyrics generally work as songs, but if one take them (quite unfairly in my view) simply as poems on the page, they are ill-focussed, incoherent often barely reach the level of doggerel:

" Ah you never turned around to see the frowns
On the jugglers and the clowns when they all did tricks for you
You never understood that it ain't no good
You shouldn't let other people get your kicks for you
You used to ride on a chrome horse with your diplomat
Who carried on his shoulder a Siamese cat
Ain't it hard when you discovered that
He really wasn't where it's at
After he took from you everything he could steal "

Poems and song-lyrics are clean different things. The kind of song that depends on verbal wit transfers much better to the page, e.g. Noel Coward ('There are bad times round the corner')

They're out of sorts in Sunderland
And terribly cross in Kent,
They're dull in Hull
And the Isle of Mull
Is seething with discontent,
They're nervous in Northumberland
And Devon is down the drain,
They're filled with wrath
On the firth of Forth
And sullen on Salisbury Plain,
In Dublin they're depressed, lads,
Maybe because they're Celts
For Drake is going West, lads,
And so is everyone else.
Hurray-hurray-hurray!
Misery's here to stay.

There are bad times just around the corner,
There are dark clouds hurtling through the sky
And it's no good whining
About a silver lining
For we know from experience that they won't roll by,
With a scowl and a frown
We'll keep our peckers down
And prepare for depression and doom and dread,
We're going to unpack our troubles from our old kit bag
And wait until we drop down dead.

But no one would think on the account that Noel Coward or Irving Berlin deserved a Nobel prize for literature, the absurdity would be even more apparent than in the case of Dylan.
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Old October 17th, 2016, 06:37 AM   #55

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linschoten View Post
But it's a song, the near-rhyme can suffice in a song; I think his lyrics generally work as songs, but if one take them (quite unfairly in my view) simply as poems on the page, they are ill-focussed, incoherent often barely reach the level of doggerel:

" Ah you never turned around to see the frowns
On the jugglers and the clowns when they all did tricks for you
You never understood that it ain't no good
You shouldn't let other people get your kicks for you
You used to ride on a chrome horse with your diplomat
Who carried on his shoulder a Siamese cat
Ain't it hard when you discovered that
He really wasn't where it's at
After he took from you everything he could steal "

Poems and song-lyrics are clean different things. The kind of song that depends on verbal wit transfers much better to the page, e.g. Noel Coward ('There are bad times round the corner')

They're out of sorts in Sunderland
And terribly cross in Kent,
They're dull in Hull
And the Isle of Mull
Is seething with discontent,
They're nervous in Northumberland
And Devon is down the drain,
They're filled with wrath
On the firth of Forth
And sullen on Salisbury Plain,
In Dublin they're depressed, lads,
Maybe because they're Celts
For Drake is going West, lads,
And so is everyone else.
Hurray-hurray-hurray!
Misery's here to stay.

There are bad times just around the corner,
There are dark clouds hurtling through the sky
And it's no good whining
About a silver lining
For we know from experience that they won't roll by,
With a scowl and a frown
We'll keep our peckers down
And prepare for depression and doom and dread,
We're going to unpack our troubles from our old kit bag
And wait until we drop down dead.

But no one would think on the account that Noel Coward or Irving Berlin deserved a Nobel prize for literature, the absurdity would be even more apparent than in the case of Dylan.
One can bend and adjust syllables to make just about anything possible in song lyrics, but it is much more difficult to do in poetry which is meant to be read. Eminem has a few interesting points to make on the songsmith's trade and how words which are not really suitable for poetry can be easily adapted to the lyric in songs :

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Old October 17th, 2016, 02:42 PM   #56

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Everybody is thinking in "singer-songwriter" mode. A consequence, perhaps, of modern "music" and how genre driven and yet how soulless it is. 3 minute pop songs about.....nothing much.

As the Edwyn Collins song said, back in 1994 , "Too many protest singers, not enough protest songs", so we're in a position now where there are NO protest singers, not unless they're the "we've got this anyway" type, like pro-gay or flavour of the month obsessions. Where the singer is "protesting" about things that hardly need protesting about any more. Like writing a song today demanding that Britain leave the EU...

Although Dylan would undoubtedly decry it, he was the one who made people think outside not just the standard subject matter of Rock n Roll (girls, surfboards, cars, motorcycles etc) , but also folk music, most of which was reworked versions of old songs.

Nobody had written songs like "Positively 4th street" or "Ballad of a thin man" nor even some of his more surreal ones, like "Sad Eyed Lady of the Lowlands" and several dozen more. Dylan was largely instrumental in making people realise that a song could be more than a pretty tune and meaningless lyrics or endless streams of love songs.

Dylan helped create a new awareness. Whilst he's best known for his "folk era" protest songs, he also had a mighty influence on artists as diverse as The Beatles and Mark Knopfler. But more than anything, he expressed, albeit on a personal level, dissatisfaction with his own world and culture. Subterranean Homesick Blues, for example. Or "It's alright, Ma, (I'm only bleeding)". Song which express how twisted "the system" is and how the odds are stacked against him.

Whilst he was never truly a part of the counter culture in America, nevertheless, he was instrumental in making people think that the world shouldn't be this way. But he has stressed many times that he's no politician, just a songwriter.

When people heard those songs, some became aware of these facts, and plenty of others thought "hell, that guy feels like I do".

If literature is more than just words, so Dylan's song are often much more than words and a pretty tune. Plenty of Nobel Literature prize winners were actually poets, and few were or are as wide ranging as Dylan. The first Nobel prize winner for literature was a French poet.

The rock and roll hall of fame? That's up there with the BAFTAS. I'd be offended to get one Well, almost.

And, at the end of the day, the Nobel prize is often controversial. As already mentioned, Obama got the peace prize for saying he wanted to eradicate nukes. Under his authority, they've proliferated massively.
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Old October 17th, 2016, 02:45 PM   #57

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Quote:
but it is much more difficult to do in poetry which is meant to be read
True, but many just revert to more archaic or arcane words to better suit their purpose. Where would many poets be without "Erin" for Ireland?
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Old October 17th, 2016, 03:24 PM   #58

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Originally Posted by Black Dog View Post
Everybody is thinking in "singer-songwriter" mode. A consequence, perhaps, of modern "music" and how genre driven and yet how soulless it is. 3 minute pop songs about.....nothing much.

As the Edwyn Collins song said, back in 1994 , "Too many protest singers, not enough protest songs", so we're in a position now where there are NO protest singers, not unless they're the "we've got this anyway" type, like pro-gay or flavour of the month obsessions. Where the singer is "protesting" about things that hardly need protesting about any more. Like writing a song today demanding that Britain leave the EU...

Although Dylan would undoubtedly decry it, he was the one who made people think outside not just the standard subject matter of Rock n Roll (girls, surfboards, cars, motorcycles etc) , but also folk music, most of which was reworked versions of old songs.

Nobody had written songs like "Positively 4th street" or "Ballad of a thin man" nor even some of his more surreal ones, like "Sad Eyed Lady of the Lowlands" and several dozen more. Dylan was largely instrumental in making people realise that a song could be more than a pretty tune and meaningless lyrics or endless streams of love songs.

Dylan helped create a new awareness. Whilst he's best known for his "folk era" protest songs, he also had a mighty influence on artists as diverse as The Beatles and Mark Knopfler. But more than anything, he expressed, albeit on a personal level, dissatisfaction with his own world and culture. Subterranean Homesick Blues, for example. Or "It's alright, Ma, (I'm only bleeding)". Song which express how twisted "the system" is and how the odds are stacked against him.

Whilst he was never truly a part of the counter culture in America, nevertheless, he was instrumental in making people think that the world shouldn't be this way. But he has stressed many times that he's no politician, just a songwriter.

When people heard those songs, some became aware of these facts, and plenty of others thought "hell, that guy feels like I do".

If literature is more than just words, so Dylan's song are often much more than words and a pretty tune. Plenty of Nobel Literature prize winners were actually poets, and few were or are as wide ranging as Dylan. The first Nobel prize winner for literature was a French poet.

The rock and roll hall of fame? That's up there with the BAFTAS. I'd be offended to get one Well, almost.

And, at the end of the day, the Nobel prize is often controversial. As already mentioned, Obama got the peace prize for saying he wanted to eradicate nukes. Under his authority, they've proliferated massively.
What took you so long to join the party? Would the Dylan of the sixties, "I am just a song and dance man" have accepted the award if it had been on offer at the time, or is he part of the depressing long line of protest singers who have sold their souls down the river in order to accept the glittering prizes on offer from the establishment? I simply did not recognise the artist, who was dressed up in his finest accepting the award from Obama, compared with the denim clad idealist who belted out Arlo Guthrie's Alice's Restaurant, his own The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carrol, and Like a Rolling stone. Songs that really connected with the youth of the sixties and bought into the Civil Rights Movement, Tariq Ali and the student riots in Paris and London and the huge anti Vietnam war demonstrations.

Hey, hey, LBJ how many kids did you kill today?

We can argue the merits of Dylan winning the prize for literature all day long as well as the value of the Rock and Roll hall of Fame, but for me personally the guy who lifted both awards was a bizarre parody of the musical and poetic genius who helped shape the kick back from the youth of the sixties. Great post though BD.
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Old October 17th, 2016, 03:45 PM   #59

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One of the great covers of a Dylan song from the myriad of fine musicians who tipped their hat to the great man :

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Old October 18th, 2016, 01:38 AM   #60

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Sorry, Von Ranke, I've been sat in a small tent in the lake district (around 100 metres from Loughrigg Tarn) on one of my photography trips. And, as if by accident, avoiding the in laws.

Yes, as I said, Dylan himself would no doubt have decried the cultural influence he has been credited with. He has always claimed to be just a singer (not even a protest singer) and songwriter. In his autobiography "Chronicles", he is at great plains to stress this and to admit a lack of understanding of politics etc. After all, one can know that something is wrong without knowing how to fix it. He said in "Chronicles" about the era of his post "Blonde on blonde" disappearance that he was being appropriated by people he didn't understand and being pushed into roles he didn't want.
He said that one group or another would get hold of his phone number and would call, saying "Bob, we're starting the revolution. Come and lead us".

And we all know that poets etc are often big on revolutionary words but spectacularly bad at most other things. They're usually the ones hiding in the toilets when the action starts. To his credit, Dylan has never claimed to be much more than an observer. Fair enough: each man should know his limits

I agree that I'd prefer him to have refused the award, particularly given the political nature of most awards these days, and I'm no fan of Obama. But imagine what the overwhelmingly right wing press would make it that. "Stupid old has been, refusing this great honour. Who does he think he is, a young Bob Dylan?".

He ploughs his own furrow and consistently does not get involved in politics. In stark contrast to certain musicians (yes, Bono, I'm looking at you) who rage about injustice and world poverty and then do their utmost to avoid tax in their own country.

Really, musicians are good at spreading ideas and mass consciousness. But as people, most are very often fit for the one thing they do, and that's your lot. It's no accident that most revolutions are led by army officers and not musicians

Yeah, Dylan's career has been sporadic since his 60s heyday. "Oh mercy" was simply brilliant. "Time out of mind" had a few real gems. "Blood on the tracks" and "Desire" were also great (from the 70s) but we're distinctly personal in nature.

Apparently, Dylan did not respond to approaches from the Nobel committee. But no matter what, he's going to get negative press no matter what he does.
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