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Old September 14th, 2017, 04:48 PM   #11

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You know...

I wonder if we could talk Tarantino into using the Iliad as the base for a really great post apocalyptic biker movie a la Road Warrior.

The scene with Achilles dragging Hector would be worth it alone.
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Old September 14th, 2017, 04:54 PM   #12

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^ Hell. You wouldn't even have to change the dialogue all that much. Just punch it up to modern English.

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Old September 15th, 2017, 02:14 AM   #13

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Originally Posted by MAGolding View Post
And that makes the end of the Trojan War 28 years after Paris abducted Helen, I think. Thus Paris should have been 28 years older at the end of the Trojan War than when he abducted Helen.
Do you mean 18 years? - 9 year siege of Troy, preceded by 9 years (in the extended myth) gathering the ships


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So Achilles was young enough and cute enough when he went off to the Trojan War to disguise himself as a girl. I can't help thinking that the person who made up that myth was making fun of the great warrior Achilles and the cleaver Odysseus by claiming that Odysseus couldn't spot Achilles immediately but had to resort to a trick to discover him.
Who said Achilles had to be cute? Lycomedes and his daughters probably knew he was male (Deidamia certainly did!). Hding him from outsiders was easy if the women of the royal court were secluded and appeared in public heavily veiled or cosmeticised. And even more easy if Lycomedes daughters were thick set and ugly!

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Neoptolemus or Pryyhus the son of Achilles was old enough to be a warrior in the last year of the Trojan War, the year Paris was killed. And if Paris made his judgement right after the marriage of Peleus and Thetis, the grandparents of Neoptolemus, he should have been a member of the generation of the parents of Achilles and grandparents of Neoptolemus.

Thus he should have been middle aged or elderly in the last year of the Trojan War, the year the Illiad is set in, except in so far as the supernaturlaly rapid growth of the partly divine Achilles and Neoptolemus might make the last year of the Trojan War only 18 years after the marriage of Peleus and Thetis.
Paris was a shepherd boy when the goddesses approached him for their beauty contest. His choices were between power, fame or sex, so if he was just entering puberty then Aphrodite was onto a winner.

Considering the myths already imply that Achilles was 9 when he fathered Neoptolemus, who was 9 himself when he went to war, then Paris might have only been about 10 years older than Achilles.

Helen, however, might have been older again, having already married Menelaus before the Judgement of Paris, and borne a number of children before Paris took her to Troy.

Plus many of the main characters in the Trojan war had themselves been old enough to approach Helen as potential husbands - e.g. Odysseus, Diomedes, Teucer and Ajax. Paris also had his older brother, Hector, who was a great warrior of Troy. This makes them all a generation older than Achilles.

Last edited by Moros; September 15th, 2017 at 02:22 AM.
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Old September 15th, 2017, 02:20 AM   #14

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Achilles was not a full god of course, but as he was partly divine then perhaps the Ancient Greeks were less concerned about his chronology in growing up than we would be. An example from Ancient Egypt, and adopted by the Greeks, is Har-pa-khered, Horus the younger, who became the Greek Harpocrates. This is an example of a divine being existing in the minds of believers in two states simultaneously, in this case a child and an adult. This is not to tie Achilles with Horus of course, just to show that the ancients thinking about these matters was somewhat different to ours, "Father, Son and Holy Ghost" not withstanding.

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Old September 15th, 2017, 03:02 AM   #15

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I think it's just a case that back in those days, what was important was a good story, not how realistic it was
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Old September 15th, 2017, 03:16 AM   #16

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Myths get adapted and expanded over the centuries, depending on the agenda of those telling or hearing the story.

When looking at the Judgement of Paris, although today the choices are portrayed as power (as king), fame (as warrior), or love (with Helen), the underlying choice seems to be have been between types of powerful kingship - land power (ruling an existing large territory), conquest power (expanding territory through war), or political power (marrying into an existing kingdom with a host of allies for support).

Paris chose political power, which was marrying Helen of Sparta. Her suitors had all promised to support the successful candidate (creating a huge area of allied kingdoms), and some of the non-Homeric myths portray Paris as having been the original choice of King Tyndareus (Helen's father). The Trojan war, in these accounts, was due to Menelaus, a failed suitor, getting all the other failed suitors to gang up on Paris, seen by them as a foreigner from Asia. The Greeks are therefore the baddies for breaking their original oath of allegiance, and it is Menelaus who is abducting Helen!
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Old November 21st, 2017, 11:14 AM   #17
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I agree. I wouldn't try to tie down the chronology of the Trojan War too much. I'm sure there is a timeline to it but I fear it would be plagued by confusion and inconsistency.

I mean, if we are looking at characters' ages, then how old would Odysseus have been? After all, even after all those years of war and his 20 years wandering, when he returned to Ithaca he needed to be disguised as an old man? So he wasn't that old when he came back but was out for, at least, the best part of three decades.

But it is better to simply enjoy the stories than to stress about the details, especially if you have a clear enough grasp on the order of things, which you clearly do.
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Since this war was considered among the ancient Greeks as either the last event of the mythical age or the first event of the historical age, several dates are given for the fall of Troy. They usually derive from genealogies of kings. Ephorus gives 1135 BC,[202] Sosibius 1172 BC,[203] Eratosthenes 1184 BC/1183 BC,[204] Timaeus 1193 BC,[205] the Parian marble 1209 BC/1208 BC,[206] Dicaearchus 1212 BC,[207] Herodotus around 1250 BC,[208] Eretes 1291 BC,[209] while Douris 1334 BC.[210] As for the exact day Ephorus gives 23/24 Thargelion (May 6 or 7), Hellanicus 12 Thargelion (May 26)[211] while others give the 23rd of Sciroforion (July 7) or the 23rd of Ponamos (October 7).

The glorious and rich city Homer describes was believed to be Troy VI by many twentieth century authors, destroyed in 1275 BC, probably by an earthquake. Its follower Troy VIIa, destroyed by fire at some point during the 1180s BC, was long considered a poorer city, but since the excavation campaign of 1988 it has risen to the most likely candidate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan...the_Trojan_War

So people have tried to fit the Trojan war into a chronological framework.

Certainly someone writing a Trojan war novel should work out a chronology of absolute and/or relative dates, especially since Achilles might be supernaturally precocious when he goes off to war.
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Old November 21st, 2017, 11:38 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Alopeias View Post
I agree. I wouldn't try to tie down the chronology of the Trojan War too much. I'm sure there is a timeline to it but I fear it would be plagued by confusion and inconsistency.

I mean, if we are looking at characters' ages, then how old would Odysseus have been? After all, even after all those years of war and his 20 years wandering, when he returned to Ithaca he needed to be disguised as an old man? So he wasn't that old when he came back but was out for, at least, the best part of three decades.

But it is better to simply enjoy the stories than to stress about the details, especially if you have a clear enough grasp on the order of things, which you clearly do.
Quote:
Since this war was considered among the ancient Greeks as either the last event of the mythical age or the first event of the historical age, several dates are given for the fall of Troy. They usually derive from genealogies of kings. Ephorus gives 1135 BC,[202] Sosibius 1172 BC,[203] Eratosthenes 1184 BC/1183 BC,[204] Timaeus 1193 BC,[205] the Parian marble 1209 BC/1208 BC,[206] Dicaearchus 1212 BC,[207] Herodotus around 1250 BC,[208] Eretes 1291 BC,[209] while Douris 1334 BC.[210] As for the exact day Ephorus gives 23/24 Thargelion (May 6 or 7), Hellanicus 12 Thargelion (May 26)[211] while others give the 23rd of Sciroforion (July 7) or the 23rd of Ponamos (October 7).

The glorious and rich city Homer describes was believed to be Troy VI by many twentieth century authors, destroyed in 1275 BC, probably by an earthquake. Its follower Troy VIIa, destroyed by fire at some point during the 1180s BC, was long considered a poorer city, but since the excavation campaign of 1988 it has risen to the most likely candidate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan...the_Trojan_War

So people have tried to fit the Trojan war into a chronological framework.

Certainly someone writing a Trojan war novel should work out a chronology of absolute and/or relative dates, especially since Achilles might be supernaturally precocious when he goes off to war.

Here is one of the latest attempts to fix the date of the Trojan war.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/scie...-in-Homer.html

Last edited by MAGolding; November 21st, 2017 at 11:50 AM.
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Old November 29th, 2017, 08:45 AM   #19

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What screws up most people's timeline of the Trojan War is that they don't realize there were two expeditions.

The first one that left Aulis mistakenly landed in Mysia, in the kingdom of King Telephus, a son of Heracles. We know Achilles killed Telephus, so he must have been there.

The next expedition to Troy wasn't launched till 8 years later. Which gives us a little hint at how long it took the Greek alliance to coordinate an attack.

Here's a rough, completely hypothetical timeline, starting at year 0.

0 Wedding of Peleus & Thetis. Judgement of Paris. Birth of Achilles.
5-15 Paris kidnaps Helen. (When this happened is a mystery.)
16 Achilles hidden on Scyros to avoid war. Birth of his son Neoplotemus.
18 First expedition to Troy. Death of Telephus. Achilles is 18 years old.
26 Second expedition Troy. Achilles is 26.
35 Ninth year of war. Death of Achilles at 35.
36 Sack of Troy. Neoplotemus is 20 years old.

Again, this is just hypothetical. But it gives you an idea of how events could piece together and still be plausible. Though of course trying to reconcile mythology with reality seems a bit of an oxymoron.
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Old January 2nd, 2018, 01:39 PM   #20
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I think the cartoonist, Gary Larson is a mite sceptical about the Trojan War.
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