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Old October 6th, 2017, 05:53 PM   #11
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He might very well different things depending on whether he saw Davis in the 60s or in the 80s.
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Old October 6th, 2017, 07:49 PM   #12
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He might very well different things depending on whether he saw Davis in the 60s or in the 80s.
If you're talking about Beethoven, I don't think it makes much difference. It all would have seemed strange to him at first. For one thing, saxophones had not yet been invented and trumpets with valves were just coming into use. There may have been some valveless trumpets in his symphonies, but certainly not the solo instrument like Miles played. However I give Beethoven credit for his being a total muscian and the clarity and moodiness of Miles Davis's music might well have made him curious, especially the improvisations. The use of the base and drums driving the beat is a hallmark of jazz and later popular genres. It would have been quite foreign to him. Neverthess I do not think he would have mistaken "So What" for tuning. In time, he might have gotten to like it. I can't say the same for Ghostface Killah. Hip hop has been described as verse over "minimalist" musical themes.

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Old October 7th, 2017, 08:40 AM   #13

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In order to give my two cents in this amazing thread

I'm not sure Beethoven would have appreciated the dissonances typical of Jazz or that particular rythm known as swing.
Taking account that he can listen to Miles before he has become completely deaf.....(tuner or not tuner that is the question...).

I would rather say Bach, Mozart or Paganini could.
Bach is a good example because he liked to improvise and played the 7b chords which are one of the basic chords of the Jazz which added new "strench" like the 9b or 13b and the famous 5b. He also used the "counterpoint" i.e different lyric lines that crossed themselves and were played in parallel (am i clear?).
The music of Bach was judged by some "experts" of his time as too much elaborate, not natural and even suspicious....

Of course, let's not talk of the music of Miles of 1970's (Jazz-rock) with Mike Stern at electric guitar.

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Old October 7th, 2017, 11:02 AM   #14
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let's not talk of the music of Miles of 1970's (Jazz-rock) with Mike Stern at electric guitar.
Thanks for those insights. I didn't know about jazz-rock and maybe don't want to know. I like beer and I like chocolate, but not together.

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Old October 8th, 2017, 02:15 AM   #15
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I'm going a bit off topic here. I have no formal training in music but it seems we are skirting around some interesting musical concepts. I came across this discussion of the unusual nature of an Amy Winehouse song Wake Up Alone a few years ago. It's the song that first attracted me to her music. I knew I was hearing something out of the ordinary but didn't know what it was. She was a talented singer and the lyrics here are shall we say "direct" (you have been warned). Then I ran across this music forum with some theorists discussing this song. I can't follow all the details, but it's clear they were intrigued and a bit baffled. A you tube link is provided

A baffling chord progression in an Amy Winehouse song....what's going on here? | Harmony Central

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Old November 2nd, 2017, 03:56 PM   #16

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This is like asking what Napolean would have thought of smartphones. Context is way out of place.

If Beethoven was born in the 1930s I'm sure he'd have been an appreciator of modern jazz.

If you literally transplanted Beethoven from his time in history he surely would have been a bit perplexed at first, but that could be said of anyone.
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Old November 4th, 2017, 10:19 AM   #17

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Anyway Miles's answer to "I don't like your music." would be "So What".
You win the thread, so far.

Beethoven had hearing problems his entire life, so he would have probably had to read the transcription. I love Beethoven and I like Miles, but I don't think B. would have dug Miles at all.

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Old November 4th, 2017, 03:16 PM   #18
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You win the thread, so far.

Beethoven had hearing problems his entire life, so he would have probably had to read the transcription. I love Beethoven and I like Miles, but I don't think B. would have dug Miles at all.
Well, I didn't make any claims. I just posed the question because music is very much a mystery to me. Why do a particular sequence of notes on a particular instrument (including voice) sound good or not to us? What's has been called "dissonance" has been used in later classical music and is common in modern music. We accept "good" dissonance but not "bad" dissonance. The listener decides and it's different for different listeners. Like you I can appreciate Beethoven and Davis. As I said "So What" has a clarity and moodiness that I like. Even Coltrane is somewhat contained compared to what did later. So in a way are we are more musically advanced as listeners than Beethoven because because we can appreciate both?

I draw my own lines like everyone else, but admit that in some cases it's my limitations and in other cases its the composer/performer's limitations. I still have difficulty with Charles Ives (my fault) and Ghostface (his fault) although even that may be my cultural bias.

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Old November 7th, 2017, 12:51 PM   #19

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Well, I didn't make any claims. I just posed the question because music is very much a mystery to me. Why do a particular sequence of notes on a particular instrument (including voice) sound good or not to us? What's has been called "dissonance" has been used in later classical music and is common in modern music. We accept "good" dissonance but not "bad" dissonance. The listener decides and it's different for different listeners. Like you I can appreciate Beethoven and Davis. As I said "So What" has a clarity and moodiness that I like. Even Coltrane is somewhat contained compared to what did later. So in a way are we are more musically advanced as listeners than Beethoven because because we can appreciate both?

I draw my own lines like everyone else, but admit that in some cases it's my limitations and in other cases its the composer/performer's limitations. I still have difficulty with Charles Ives (my fault) and Ghostface (his fault) although even that may be my cultural bias.
To some extent, we can appreciate Miles and Ives today (don't know Ghostface so can't comment but I do appreciate Ives--I like humor in music) because of Beethoven.
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Old November 7th, 2017, 12:59 PM   #20

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Originally Posted by stevev View Post
Well, I didn't make any claims. I just posed the question because music is very much a mystery to me. Why do a particular sequence of notes on a particular instrument (including voice) sound good or not to us? What's has been called "dissonance" has been used in later classical music and is common in modern music. We accept "good" dissonance but not "bad" dissonance. The listener decides and it's different for different listeners. Like you I can appreciate Beethoven and Davis. As I said "So What" has a clarity and moodiness that I like. Even Coltrane is somewhat contained compared to what did later. So in a way are we are more musically advanced as listeners than Beethoven because because we can appreciate both?

I draw my own lines like everyone else, but admit that in some cases it's my limitations and in other cases its the composer/performer's limitations. I still have difficulty with Charles Ives (my fault) and Ghostface (his fault) although even that may be my cultural bias.

Well, there are some simple (simplistic? basic?) explanations on consonance, dissonance based on acoustic and psychology, but the most important remains musical education. Education in the sense of what music one has been "born into", how one had been exposed to music, aso.

I'd say the most telling example would be the half tone: its the smallest inteval "westerners" can perceive. Asian music has third-tones, fourth-tones.
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