Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > Themes in History > Art and Cultural History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Art and Cultural History Art and Cultural History Forum - Music, Literature, Mythology, Visual Arts, Sports, Popular Culture


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old November 8th, 2017, 02:48 AM   #21
Historian
 
Joined: Jun 2016
From: England, 200 yards from Wales
Posts: 1,303

Quote:
Originally Posted by deaf tuner View Post

I'd say the most telling example would be the half tone: its the smallest inteval "westerners" can perceive. Asian music has third-tones, fourth-tones.
You mean a semitone? It may be the smallest interval used in 'traditional' Western classical music, but it's certainly not the smallest interval Westerners can perceive.
I think quite a bit of recent music uses micro-tones, indeed a composer called Delusse wrote a piece for flute using quarter-tones in the middle of the 18th century. (Inspired by Greek music, but the French Delusse could use such intervals when he wanted to - ).
And before equal temperament took over the small enharmonic difference between F# and Gb (for instance) was quite perceptible and would have been to Beethoven (until he went deaf!).

Last edited by johnminnitt; November 8th, 2017 at 03:50 AM.
johnminnitt is offline  
Remove Ads
Old November 13th, 2017, 10:27 AM   #22

David Vagamundo's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Jan 2010
From: Atlanta, Georgia USA
Posts: 3,157

I was thinking about this question over the weekend.

I believe that Beethoven would have appreciated Thelonious Monk--both were piano players.
David Vagamundo is offline  
Old November 13th, 2017, 12:01 PM   #23

deaf tuner's Avatar
hier is da feestje !!!
 
Joined: Oct 2013
From: Europe
Posts: 10,679
Blog Entries: 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnminnitt View Post
You mean a semitone? It may be the smallest interval used in 'traditional' Western classical music, but it's certainly not the smallest interval Westerners can perceive.
I think quite a bit of recent music uses micro-tones, indeed a composer called Delusse wrote a piece for flute using quarter-tones in the middle of the 18th century. (Inspired by Greek music, but the French Delusse could use such intervals when he wanted to -
And before equal temperament took over the small enharmonic difference between F# and Gb (for instance) was quite perceptible and would have been to Beethoven (until he went deaf!).
I slightly disagree as practically no Westerner can reproduce accurately a third of tone, or a quarter of tone. Not even mentioning differences of 2/10, 3/10, 4/10 of tone, that exist in Arab Maqm, or scales composed of three basic intervals: tones, 1/2 of tone and 1/3 of tone. We can perceive the difference, but it's a simple approximation ("a bit smaller" than ...).

Temperaments ... that's another story.
deaf tuner is offline  
Old November 14th, 2017, 06:19 PM   #24
Historian
 
Joined: Apr 2017
From: Las Vegas, NV USA
Posts: 1,231

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Vagamundo View Post
I was thinking about this question over the weekend.

I believe that Beethoven would have appreciated Thelonious Monk--both were piano players.
Since this is impossible anyway, we should assume the our Beethoven could hear well. And I do think he would have liked 'Round Midight". Monk played a lot between the white keys, greatly expanding the instument's capacity. That would have intrigued Beethoven.

Last edited by stevev; November 14th, 2017 at 06:44 PM.
stevev is offline  
Old November 15th, 2017, 06:44 AM   #25
Historian
 
Joined: Jun 2016
From: England, 200 yards from Wales
Posts: 1,303

Quote:
Originally Posted by deaf tuner View Post
I slightly disagree as practically no Westerner can reproduce accurately a third of tone, or a quarter of tone. Not even mentioning differences of 2/10, 3/10, 4/10 of tone, that exist in Arab Maqm, or scales composed of three basic intervals: tones, 1/2 of tone and 1/3 of tone. We can perceive the difference, but it's a simple approximation ("a bit smaller" than ...).

Temperaments ... that's another story.
I'm not claiming anything for my linited ears, but well, don't people tuning instruments tune intervals to an accuracy of a lot less than 1/3 tone. And will tune different-width fifths etc according to temperament?

Also of course the story of Mozart picking up someone's violin and remarking that is was tuned 1/4 semitone flatter than it was last week. (from memory - I don't guarantee that was the exact interval).
johnminnitt is offline  
Old November 15th, 2017, 08:29 AM   #26

deaf tuner's Avatar
hier is da feestje !!!
 
Joined: Oct 2013
From: Europe
Posts: 10,679
Blog Entries: 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnminnitt View Post
I'm not claiming anything for my linited ears, but well, don't people tuning instruments tune intervals to an accuracy of a lot less than 1/3 tone. And will tune different-width fifths etc according to temperament?....
John, tuning is one thing, reproducing intervals/microintervals is a different thing.

Any (not ear-deaf) Westerner can sing/play fairly accurately a western scale ( like 1 - 1 - 1/2 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1/2). No westerner musician can sing/play accuratelly an oriental scale (arab/hindi/etc, like 1/2 - 1/3 - 1/3 - 4/3 - 1).

It's simply question of musical education.

_________
BTW, I can tell You by ear (accurately!) if a sound is lower with 1 or 1,5 or 2 Herz (wich in the medium range of musical sound is a lot less then 1/4 of tone.

In certain conditions ...

Last edited by deaf tuner; November 15th, 2017 at 08:32 AM.
deaf tuner is offline  
Old November 15th, 2017, 12:26 PM   #27

phil1904's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Nov 2015
From: An Hotel of the French Riviera
Posts: 1,254
Blog Entries: 1

Sorry deaf
I'm at a loss since your post of 14th November
Of course a westerner musician can play and hear the musical intervals you mention, it's called the Microtonal music.
Besides the Traditionnal Greek Music uses the quarter tone and it's a westerner one.
There're many microtonal versions of classical music tune.Intervals are played very precisely, sometime under certain conditions like to modify the place of the frets on a guitar neck.
Here is a short good video that explains this and in which you can check that you hear the intervals played.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDr6refSgg0
Forgive me, this post is breacking my heart

But you know even the best ones are wrong

Last edited by phil1904; November 15th, 2017 at 12:40 PM.
phil1904 is online now  
Old November 15th, 2017, 01:33 PM   #28

deaf tuner's Avatar
hier is da feestje !!!
 
Joined: Oct 2013
From: Europe
Posts: 10,679
Blog Entries: 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by phil1904 View Post
Sorry deaf
I'm at a loss since your post of 14th November
Of course a westerner musician can play and hear the musical intervals you mention, it's called the Microtonal music.
Besides the Traditionnal Greek Music uses the quarter tone and it's a westerner one.
There're many microtonal versions of classical music tune.Intervals are played very precisely, sometime under certain conditions like to modify the place of the frets on a guitar neck.
Here is a short good video that explains this and in which you can check that you hear the intervals played.

Forgive me, this post is breacking my heart

But you know even the best ones are wrong
Don't be heartbrecked .... cause Your wrong.

I wasn't talking about "microtones", about "syntonic" come, or all that stuff nor about scientific demonstrations, nor didactic exemplifications.

I was talking about actual music, today. For some 4-5 centuries now, Western music was systematized, "rationalised", creating as basic interval the half-tone and reducing the octave to 12 perfectly equal semitones. On the way, it eliminated other intonational systems that existed.

Stupid comparison: "continentals" and Brits - decimal money system (1 franc = 100 centimes) vs British system (Pound, Guinea, Shilling, Pence). No continental can understand how the heck British used that system, we could eventually learn it (??) but it's really hard as hell when someone buys something from You that costs 5 Pound and 2 Shillings and You have only Guinea and Pence. So, what You give back if he's giving You a ten pounds? Hein ? A Brit, on the other hand, will think (never saying it, they're Gentlemen ... ) "what's so complicated"? We're used to use, to think in 2 units, they're used to think in 4 units.

BTW, in Your vid, had You paid attention to the fact that all examples are on fretted instruments, but not on unfretted? Meaning that the one playing doesn't actually form the intervals, but using pre-formed ones? Meaning he hasn't to actually decide the proper hight, the actual interval.

There's a larger excerpt of "hzzam saz semaisi" on a fretted guitar. Here's another example on an unfretted oud:



Question: how many western guitarists, formed only in the western music (that has as the smallest interval the half-tone) can do it ?

tip: do a vid-search on "hzzam saz semaisi", and then look at the names of those playing it on unfretted instruments ...

Last edited by deaf tuner; November 15th, 2017 at 01:38 PM.
deaf tuner is offline  
Old November 15th, 2017, 01:47 PM   #29

deaf tuner's Avatar
hier is da feestje !!!
 
Joined: Oct 2013
From: Europe
Posts: 10,679
Blog Entries: 27

Ok, the discussion became a bit too theoretical and serious (there's no harm in having a bit of fun, I hope).



Let's go to a comparative example on the very classical Mozart's "Alla Turca"





and its "orientalised" version.


deaf tuner is offline  
Old November 15th, 2017, 04:44 PM   #30

phil1904's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Nov 2015
From: An Hotel of the French Riviera
Posts: 1,254
Blog Entries: 1

Deaf, really?
Humour ! Ok, but taking into account of your arguments in posts 23, 26, 28 respectively, they are confused and contradictory.
And i pass on the history about the instruments with fret...etc (there's also a saxophone in the video).
Let's not talk of your question in the style "can you play a lute (or a oud?)... without a lute?"
Can you play violin without violin?

Argumentation confuse (2).jpg

Indeed you've broken my heart

That said, about your last post, i find it funny and interesting.

For information the performance of the musicians is cool: Going from A minor up to B flat major is like going from A minor up to G minor.
Roughly B flat Major= G minor "natural" (i don't know how they say in English).
I.e there's one tone of difference between the Piano and the violin, since at the beginning the initial tone was A minor.
It exists some minor western patterns which make "oriental", the pattern minor harmonic.
For examble, in a Bb major pattern you replace the 3rd major by a 3rd minor, i.e D by D flat and you succeed in having an oriental color.

Don't think that i show off, i don't care of this, moreover i'm no longer a musician and since long times, but it's a post in an artistic forum and it's about music, then let's talk music.

Last edited by phil1904; November 15th, 2017 at 05:11 PM.
phil1904 is online now  
Reply

  Historum > Themes in History > Art and Cultural History

Tags
beethoven



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata stevev Art and Cultural History 6 August 24th, 2017 07:27 PM
Ludwig van Beethoven Fireatwill Art and Cultural History 55 June 2nd, 2016 05:36 AM
Mozart vs Beethoven Darren Singh Art and Cultural History 12 April 28th, 2015 08:56 AM
Eternal Beethoven 1770 1827 Thessalonian Art and Cultural History 0 August 18th, 2011 07:01 AM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.