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Old October 19th, 2012, 10:43 AM   #31

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I suppose, to put it another way, they considered themselves traditional Christians with the apostolic succession over whom the Bishop of Rome and the heresies he had introduced had no authority. Traditionally the Country was evangelised by Joseph of Arimathea, long before the Papacy seized control of the western Church. I am not arguing these positions, just suggestging that not everyone was so hung up on Rome as we are supposed to suppose.
Well, England had been Catholic for hundreds of years before Shakespeare's day, and the people did not give up their traditional beliefs without a struggle. See The Stripping of the Altars by Eammon Duffy.
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Old October 19th, 2012, 11:07 AM   #32
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Well, England had been Catholic for hundreds of years before Shakespeare's day, and the people did not give up their traditional beliefs without a struggle. See The Stripping of the Altars by Eammon Duffy.
It had been a sort of Christian, certainly. It depends where you start from, and what sort of power you are after, like Augustine being sent to pretend everyone had changed over from Cristianity to a foreign form of paganism there. If you are currently a Roman Catholic you will tend to see the matter from that perspective perhaps?
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Old November 11th, 2012, 04:36 AM   #33
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Catholics in Elizabethan England were known as Papists. The term Roman Catholic is also used today. Anglicans probably did consider themselves Catholic then. There is some similarity between the Anglican and Eastern Orthodox religions, but the Anglican religion has protestant elements.

In the 17th century, Oxford was training high church priests, whereas Cambridge was turning out puritan priests/ministers, who were still officially Church of England.
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Old November 11th, 2012, 06:29 PM   #34
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There is some evidence about Shakespeare that his daughter was a Catholic as well as his parent and that he wasn't a member of an Anglican church. He was also married by a high church priest from several miles away, which might have been his parents' idea.

He could definitely have considered himself a Catholic and an Anglican. Under Elizabeth they didn't care if you were high church or low church or whatever. Elizabeth, Henry VIII and the Anglican church leaders wanted to make it easy for everyone to be Anglican. Saying or attending a Latin mass could probably get you in a lot of trouble though.

It was also true in the pre and post reformation Catholic church that a lot of theological disagreements were tolerated, but certain things were considered heresy.

In the US, there are high church Episcopal churches. The services and so on are very close to Catholic. In fact, while there are some Anglican reforms, they ignore most of the Catholic changes from Vatican II and some from the counter-reformation. These churches are accepted in the Episcopal / Anglican church organization.

There are some southeners from slave owning backgrounds descended from Catholic aristocrats who are high church Episcopal.
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Old November 11th, 2012, 07:07 PM   #35
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I think he was Protestant.
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Old November 11th, 2012, 09:21 PM   #36

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It had been a sort of Christian, certainly. It depends where you start from, and what sort of power you are after, like Augustine being sent to pretend everyone had changed over from Cristianity to a foreign form of paganism there. If you are currently a Roman Catholic you will tend to see the matter from that perspective perhaps?
I don't know about pretending, the Saxons were Pagans as far as I know, until converted by Augustine. I suppose the non-Saxon population might have continued to be Christian, but the Saxons were the ruing class by then. After that, the English were Catholic until the Reformation.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 03:48 AM   #37

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Please stop confusing "Catholic" with "Roman Catholic" or Papistry.
The Church of England was pronounced both Catholic and Reformed in 1558.
Some definitions.
  • Catholic in that it views itself as a part of the universal church of Jesus Christ in unbroken continuity with the early apostolic church. This is expressed in its emphasis on the teachings of the early Church Fathers, as formalised in the Apostles', Nicene, and Athanasian creeds.
  • Reformed in that it has been shaped by some of the doctrinal principles of the 16th century Protestant Reformation, in particular in the Thirty-Nine Articles and the Book of Common Prayer.
These things are important to Ned Flanders and various God-botherers.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 04:34 AM   #38

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All right then. England was Roman Catholic until the Reformation. Is that good enough for you, Mr Picky?
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Old November 12th, 2012, 04:45 AM   #39

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All right then. England was Roman Catholic until the Reformation. Is that good enough for you, Mr Picky?
Much better!
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Old November 12th, 2012, 04:47 AM   #40
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I don't know about pretending, the Saxons were Pagans as far as I know, until converted by Augustine. I suppose the non-Saxon population might have continued to be Christian, but the Saxons were the ruing class by then. After that, the English were Catholic until the Reformation.
ON all the current evidence they were a very small ruling class, and I'd be surprised, really surprised, if Britain were the only country in the world which not only changed back from Christianity to paganism but to someone else's paganism. The old idea depended on the - I think essentially anachronistic - notion of total ethnic cleansing. Given that the current estimates of population for Roman Britannia are getting towasrds four or five million and that of the Anglo-Saxons very, very much fewer, I don't think that dog will fight.
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