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Old November 15th, 2012, 09:56 AM   #21

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Originally Posted by beetle View Post
Sooo, you claim others are vulnerable to being hypnotized but you're not? What makes you so special? Why are you invulnerable to such things but others, perhaps the "rabble", are not? How elitist.
Simple answer: I compare and don't watch the one.
Sooo what's the matter? Afraid of the one who doesn't walk step and step and
drink the cool-aide?
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Old November 15th, 2012, 01:14 PM   #22

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Originally Posted by Spartacuss View Post
I fail to see how these protests of agenda based mass media can be framed in a "bad now- good then" comparison. Mass media in the US has always been agenda based from it's very beginning. Early on, in pursuing their agendas, various newspapers became so vicious that it was a prime motivation behind the misguided Alien and Sedition Act in John Adams' presidency. The political association of these "family owned" papers had everything to do with how domestic and international events were portrayed to the readership. In the history of America no aspect of mass media from any source or method of presentation has ever been without bias and fudging of fact in support of agendas. The people's fault in this is a general tendency to let the drivers of media agendas to do their thinking for them.
That's the truth of it Spartacus, I think it little different than it ever was in this country. In previous centuries before the web, every city had several newspapers and pamphleteers which catered to the separate political parties and political movements. This was done very openly and with the express purpose. Partisan arguments in local politics and business often led to bloodshed and arrests. Often there were competing agents with arrest powers in the same local, one empowered by the Dems another by the Repubs. Reading the old newspapers shows that If anything, it is far gentler these days and the inflammatory rhetoric milder.

business is to get an audience. Whatever else it is, our newspaper must be excessively interesting, not to the good, wise men and pure in spirit, but to the great mass of sordid, squalid humanity. Humanity is vulgar, so we must be vulgar. It is coarse, so we must not be refined. It is passionate; therefore the blood that flows through our newspapers must be warm."
-W. Scripps, turn of the century entrepreneur and founder of a $50 million dollar newspaper conglomerate.

Introductory Newspaper Catalog: Americana 1865 to 1910

Hearst and Pulitzer, in the yellow journalism era, sound just like the polarized news we get today:


The Yellow Press
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Old November 15th, 2012, 02:10 PM   #23

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^ Right on time and savin' my dime. I completely agree. Hearst and Pulitzer, milestones in dance calling media. Nice post.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 02:43 PM   #24

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Interesting post Beetle. I would love to discuss the lot of it, but politics forbade. You may be all right about this.But...
You are the 2nd person in the past two weeks to say to me "you may be right, but ..." It's OK. Hey, I've heard far worse responses! I appreciate your taking the time to read the post and to not automatically dismiss it.

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(And what follows will be rather difficult to put into words, if not sound incredibly weird). I will say this however. No i haven't a problem with someone who thinks different from me. In fact, i feel all the more richer by being surrounded by so many differing opinions. Heck, i am a political minority even in my own family and i still love them to death and they still love me (i think), though my mother still hasn't gotten over the shock of my *beliefs after all these years. Though family get together's had always been a bit odd and sometimes lively if i felt devilish enough to spice things up.
It doesn't sound weird. It's been my experience that everyone in a family does not believe the same thing or hold the same opinions. All I know is that when folks gather for a family get-together or a holiday, never discuss politics or religion. (And often there's someone who tries to. It seems there are ways, after a bit of this sort of thing, to change the subject.)

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No, the real problem, in my book, is when people are (Let's say for the sake of the discussion, unintentionally misled) to believing so and so only because of what they see, hear or even laugh at;
No doubt there is a powerful popular culture which bombards us all the time. Young people are vulnerable to this, and so are many adults. It's much like adolescent peer pressure. In small local communities there can be enormous pressures to conform that don't have anything to do with "mass media."

That the purported popular "beliefs" can be misleading shows that such "beliefs" are often just shallow caricatures. But they suit the human condition, in that we often characterize persons of other beliefs or lifestyles in a shallow manner. (I've been using the word "caricature" on purpose; it's not a typo.)

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Which i can only guess plays it's part in this great division...
Before I attempt to address this, could you give me a hint or something about what is "this great division"? If it involves politics, much in the US has to do with gerrymandering of congressional districts. The lack of competition in protected, gerrymandered districts has led to immoderation and, yes, extremism. But if you may think this is bad now, you should brush up a little on what US politics was like in the 19th century! Ferocious negative campaigning was the norm back then.

If it has to do with non-political matters, well, this is a bit of a different thing. This may have more to do with prevailing attitudes which are supported and encouraged by our culture and entertainments.

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Having come between families, friends, lovers, trusted confidantes, long time acquaintances or friendships at work. I don't think there should be a middle person or thing to help form or become a source that is entertaining our beliefs systems at the expense of what ever belief is the current punching bag.
OK. Hey, I don't wish to come across like one of those Dear Abby-type advice columnists (You know what the worst vice is? Advice.). But if a middle person or thing can come between lovers or trusted confidantes, or friendships ... if a middle person or thing can do that ... then it may be something else.

It's impossible to have any sort of relationship without outside influences. If the outside influences are stronger than "the ties that bind" ... then perhaps it may be time to give thought to why that may be.

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Turning the channel or seeking alternative entertainment doesn't seem to be working anymore, in fact it appears to be breaking down, beetle. Sooner or later, all avenues will be exhausted and we just are going to have to come face to face with the other, this unknown, thing... that was a person that we knew well once, but has turned into this vague distant memory... * And by beliefs, i mean all things different from the perceptive of a first person
Americans were very comfortable in the 1950s, a time when women and colored folks were kept in their place. And as for gays, they lived in closets. Heck, Catholics (like me) didn't start to become accepted until JFK got elected in 1960.

The US is no longer a monochrome WASP culture. Have certain things gone a bit too far? I think they have. But we do have a zillion alternatives and they do work just fine (I think.) Don't like the blather of TV talk or reality shows? You've got alternatives. Don't like some of the prevailing attitudes? Alternatives exist.

As for beliefs being all things different from the perspective of a first person, that first person has his/her own beliefs, and well may another say the same about them. If I may put it in a bit of tawdry way, what's good for the goose is also good for the gander.

My point in this thread is that when I hear folks accuse those who do not share their beliefs or opinions as being no more than than the manipulated victims of "mass media" (whatever that may be in this era), I disagree.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 03:03 PM   #25

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Originally Posted by tjadams View Post
Simple answer: I compare and don't watch the one.
Sooo what's the matter? Afraid of the one who doesn't walk step and step and
drink the cool-aide?
Hey, tj, how's my favorite ALer? Still fighting the good fight?

I'm the one who disagrees with those who claim that others who don't share their opinions or beliefs must be the mindless victims of "mass media."

It's an old tactic as well as excuse. Brush up on your US history, old sport, particularly since the 1970s, when political disagreements began to be transformed into moral disagreements. Answer me this (so said Batman's nemesis the Riddler), from whence did that come?

C'mon now, don't be afraid, this isn't an area where angels may fear to tread. Can you answer my riddle, er, I mean question?

And save the baloney about kool-aid, etc. That's the lowest form of discussion. You, more than most in these forums, should know better, old sport. Sticks and stones, ya know ...
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Old November 15th, 2012, 04:02 PM   #26

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Mass media dictates, through sheer repetition and by its ubiquitous nature, just about everything the average person eats, thinks, does, believes and buys.

To become aware of this this is to essentially become an non-conformist in every way.

I DON'T eat what they say, listen to what they say, vote for what they want or believe what I see and read about in the mainstream. As they used to say in the former USSR, "don't believe anything until it is officially denied". This is particularly true of the BBC, which lives, largely, off its wartime reputation, which was, in truth, already tainted. I mean, we expect Fox etc to be garbage.

But: whilst the dead tree editions of newspapers are slowly dying, and the TV networks succumb to right wing (Murdoch style) control, the Internet WILL be next. The mainstream net, anyhow. It's already happening. Google, for instance, is far from the big, impartial "don't be evil" (its motto!) organisation it pretends to be. Google both filters and "bubbles" its users, for marketing and also for ideological reasons. Try googling for websites condemning, for instance, homosexuality. They're very few and mostly Christian. But there are lots, many amongst the medical profession.

Believe me, I've worked in computers for over 19 years and I have seen the slow, almost invisible, reeling in of the Internet. Take a look at the how authority has bulldozed popular "torrent" sites, like Oink's Pink Palace (file sharing site) and Demonoid, (likewise) once rated the 11th most popular website on the Internet. Demonoid and Oink did nothing, technically, illegal. A .torrent file is small file which connects to a tracker which then downloads a file (admittedly, usually an illegally shared file). The point being, the .torrent host does not hold files on their servers, merely the .torrent files.

But the power of greedy corporations who refuse to take advantage of the 21st century market have highly corrupt and undemocratic methods of getting what they want.

And if they have, the rest of the vested interests and ruling classes have. Be warned!
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Old November 15th, 2012, 04:05 PM   #27

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Welcome back Black Dog
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Old November 15th, 2012, 04:13 PM   #28

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Thanks mate The shortest break in history, but never mind. My ranting muscles were weakening

Glad you and Brian Gower didn't clear off
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Old November 15th, 2012, 04:43 PM   #29

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I am glad to see you back Black Dog, I have missed you on the board and we have been getting sightings of Yorgos Apart from most people that seemed to be dumb into reading celebrity magazines and pointless soaps to allow us the escape the realms of reality. There is a lot of stuff in the news that has become embarrassing to the BBC and its media staff. With everyday new facts come out and embarrassed the media which they are trying to cover up. The Jimmy Saville case has been all over the news with its embarrassing dark and pedophile cases. It beggars beyond belief how the media had kept that so quite when they knew it was going on for so long. Its still quite obvious that they are still hiding the truth about what really happened and I think its up to the journalist to dish the dirt for the truth.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 11:14 PM   #30

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Quote:
Originally Posted by beetle View Post
You are the 2nd person in the past two weeks to say to me "you may be right, but ..." It's OK. Hey, I've heard far worse responses!
Need to cover my bases.

Quote:
It doesn't sound weird. It's been my experience that everyone in a family does not believe the same thing or hold the same opinions. All I know is that when folks gather for a family get-together or a holiday, never discuss politics or religion. (And often there's someone who tries to. It seems there are ways, after a bit of this sort of thing, to change the subject.)
I am glad it didn't sound weird to you. To me, it just felt quite odd trying to piece together a post without breaking the rules.

Quote:
That the purported popular "beliefs" can be misleading shows that such "beliefs" are often just shallow caricatures. But they suit the human condition, in that we often characterize persons of other beliefs or lifestyles in a shallow manner. (I've been using the word "caricature" on purpose; it's not a typo.)
Maybe it is just me, but i do so enjoy a sharp wit with a sense of humor that can be sometimes self deprecating. Kind of like Will Rogers. We just don't see this type of humor very much anymore. The closet we can come to it today is with Jon Stewart.

Quote:
Before I attempt to address this, could you give me a hint or something about what is "this great division"? If it involves politics, much in the US has to do with gerrymandering of congressional districts. The lack of competition in protected, gerrymandered districts has led to immoderation and, yes, extremism.
Sorry, i thought you knew what i had meant about the great divide in the country. Of course it is too political to delve into here.

Quote:
But if you may think this is bad now, you should brush up a little on what US politics was like in the 19th century! Ferocious negative campaigning was the norm back then.
Yes, i knew it was pretty bad then, but luckily for them, they weren't bombarded by television and radio.

Quote:
If it has to do with non-political matters, well, this is a bit of a different thing. This may have more to do with prevailing attitudes which are supported and encouraged by our culture and entertainments.
The thing is, our culture and entertainment is fully politicized and often not anymore representative today than it was sixty years ago. We went from one bad extreme to another.

Quote:
OK. Hey, I don't wish to come across like one of those Dear Abby-type advice columnists (You know what the worst vice is? Advice.). But if a middle person or thing can come between lovers or trusted confidantes, or friendships ... if a middle person or thing can do that ... then it may be something else.
I call it the subtle promotion of negative partisanship.

Quote:
Americans were very comfortable in the 1950s, a time when women and colored folks were kept in their place. And as for gays, they lived in closets. Heck, Catholics (like me) didn't start to become accepted until JFK got elected in 1960.
The thing is, quite a few people are stuck in the 50's and 60's, still beating a long since gone dead horse.

Quote:
As for beliefs being all things different from the perspective of a first person, that first person has his/her own beliefs, and well may another say the same about them. If I may put it in a bit of tawdry way, what's good for the goose is also good for the gander.
So, do you believe turn about is fair play? It just sounds incredibly childish and boorishly immature.

Quote:
My point in this thread is that when I hear folks accuse those who do not share their beliefs or opinions as being no more than than the manipulated victims of "mass media" (whatever that may be in this era), I disagree.
Alright. I will stop saying that then. Instead, i will start saying that the other half of the country stopped laughing together when they noticed favoritism & preferential treatment had taken over.
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