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Old January 4th, 2013, 12:01 PM   #151

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China is trying their best to become more modern. They built the world's largest mall, but it is failing. Some Western companies like Best Buy,Mcdonalds,KFC and Apple have gone into China. Mcdonalds and KFC are doing fine in China as apposed to Best Buy and Apple are doing terribale in China because of the fact you can get a product that looks like and IPhone but is not,but it is really cheap
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Old January 5th, 2013, 01:42 AM   #152

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China's land equipment during the sino japanese war was modern. The navy was modern too but becauae of corruption the shells lacked explosives and were filled with various garbage
I agree somewhat that the Beiyang Navy was reasonably modern, but the same cannot be said for the army.

'In 1892, the New York World interviewed the inspector general of the Imperial Maritime Customs, Sir Robert Hart. The interviewer remarked on what he considered an astonishing parade of Chinese soldiers he had just seen. He noted that the soldiers were "actually armed with bows and arrows and firearms of the most antique pattern." "Most people are surprised," Hart replied, "for incredible as it may appear, while possessing as she does some of the finest types of modern warships, the Chinese army is still in many respects absolutely what it was three hundred years ago - merely an armed indisciplined horde. There seems as yet no signs of her waking up from this lethargy."' - Paine (2003) p. 148.

'In 1894 Lord Curzon wrote: "...Rifles of an obsolete fashion pattern, bought second-hand or third-hand in Europe, are dealt out to those who are on active service...The weapon of the majority is, however, an ancient matchlock, of which the most familiar pattern is the jingal, which requires two men to fire it."' - Paine (2003) pp. 148-149.

'According to the Intelligence Division of the British Government, despite the importation of huge quantities of firearms, "the majority of the Chinese army is to this day armed with the now almost prehistoric matchlock." The Japanese general staff estimated that only three-fifths of the Chinese army was armed with some kind of rifle. The rest had only a pike, spear or sword.' - Paine (2003) p. 149.

In regards to my earlier post regarding the siege of Pyongyang:

'They [the Chinese] had been massing troops and supplies and constructing fortifications at Pyongyang for almost two months. At the time of the battle, the Chinese had approximately 13,000 troops dispersed in 27 forts surrounded by trenches and moats...The Chinese sent their most modern equipment there' - Paine (2003) p. 165.
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Old January 5th, 2013, 03:59 AM   #153
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This exactly proves my point that the Manchus didn't really allow China to develop for the 300 years that they were in charge.

Most of their energy and effort was spent keeping an eye on the Chinese, to keep the Chinese from rebelling.

Take firearms, for example, the Manchus didn't really make any further developments in this area at all.
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Old January 5th, 2013, 04:01 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Emperor Trajan View Post
China is trying their best to become more modern. They built the world's largest mall, but it is failing. Some Western companies like Best Buy,Mcdonalds,KFC and Apple have gone into China. Mcdonalds and KFC are doing fine in China as apposed to Best Buy and Apple are doing terribale in China because of the fact you can get a product that looks like and IPhone but is not,but it is really cheap
China only started really developing beginning in the 1980s, so it's made some decent progress considering that it has only been 30 years.

All nations go through this type of phase when they're in their developing stage.
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Old January 5th, 2013, 09:01 AM   #155
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I agree somewhat that the Beiyang Navy was reasonably modern, but the same cannot be said for the army.

'In 1892, the New York World interviewed the inspector general of the Imperial Maritime Customs, Sir Robert Hart. The interviewer remarked on what he considered an astonishing parade of Chinese soldiers he had just seen. He noted that the soldiers were "actually armed with bows and arrows and firearms of the most antique pattern." "Most people are surprised," Hart replied, "for incredible as it may appear, while possessing as she does some of the finest types of modern warships, the Chinese army is still in many respects absolutely what it was three hundred years ago - merely an armed indisciplined horde. There seems as yet no signs of her waking up from this lethargy."' - Paine (2003) p. 148.

'In 1894 Lord Curzon wrote: "...Rifles of an obsolete fashion pattern, bought second-hand or third-hand in Europe, are dealt out to those who are on active service...The weapon of the majority is, however, an ancient matchlock, of which the most familiar pattern is the jingal, which requires two men to fire it."' - Paine (2003) pp. 148-149.

'According to the Intelligence Division of the British Government, despite the importation of huge quantities of firearms, "the majority of the Chinese army is to this day armed with the now almost prehistoric matchlock." The Japanese general staff estimated that only three-fifths of the Chinese army was armed with some kind of rifle. The rest had only a pike, spear or sword.' - Paine (2003) p. 149.

In regards to my earlier post regarding the siege of Pyongyang:

'They [the Chinese] had been massing troops and supplies and constructing fortifications at Pyongyang for almost two months. At the time of the battle, the Chinese had approximately 13,000 troops dispersed in 27 forts surrounded by trenches and moats...The Chinese sent their most modern equipment there' - Paine (2003) p. 165.
The only thing this proves is that the beiyang's army logistics was crap, because they had tons of mausers and modern rifles left behind in dumps in korea and tons of krupp artillery and rifles in arsenrals all over china. The jiangnan arsenal produced tons of breech loading artillery and rifles, and officials failed to coordinate supplies.

Li Hung-Chang and China's Early Modernization - Samuel C. Chu - Google Books

Chinese officials also deliberately paraded soldiers in public with matchlocks, bows and spears, while in private drills they took modern rifles out of the arsenal to train with.

The Overland Monthly - Google Books

During the boxer rebellion, the allies had no idea that agents from western countries had been selling tons of repeating rifles to China.

Some Did It for Civilisation; Some Did It for Their Country: A Revised View ... - Jane E. Elliott - Google Books

The beiyang army left behind hundreds of mauser magazine rifles, breechloading artillery and field guns during the sino japanese war.

The Sino-Japanese War of 1894-1895: Perceptions, Power, and Primacy - S. C. M. Paine - Google Books

Last edited by deke; January 5th, 2013 at 09:17 AM.
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Old January 5th, 2013, 09:06 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Bo_Wong View Post
This exactly proves my point that the Manchus didn't really allow China to develop for the 300 years that they were in charge.

Most of their energy and effort was spent keeping an eye on the Chinese, to keep the Chinese from rebelling.

Take firearms, for example, the Manchus didn't really make any further developments in this area at all.
The manchus allowed chinese merchants to bankrupt dozens of mongols princes by permitting them to take out huge loans on credit. The mongols revolted several times against the Qing because of this. Only chinese settlement in mongolia was banned, chinese merchants were allowed to tradem loan money and get rich.

Cultural Encounters on China's Ethnic Frontiers - Stevan Harrell - Google Books

Reins of Liberation: An Entangled History of Mongolian Independence, Chinese ... - Xiaoyuan Liu - Google Books

The qing also encouraged lamaism among the mongols to dampen their war abilities and structured the banners in inner mongolia to divide the mongols. The dzunghar mongols were nearly wiped out by the Qing.

Last edited by deke; January 5th, 2013 at 09:37 AM.
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Old January 5th, 2013, 11:48 AM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deke View Post
The manchus allowed chinese merchants to bankrupt dozens of mongols princes by permitting them to take out huge loans on credit. The mongols revolted several times against the Qing because of this. Only chinese settlement in mongolia was banned, chinese merchants were allowed to tradem loan money and get rich.

Cultural Encounters on China's Ethnic Frontiers - Stevan Harrell - Google Books

Reins of Liberation: An Entangled History of Mongolian Independence, Chinese ... - Xiaoyuan Liu - Google Books

The qing also encouraged lamaism among the mongols to dampen their war abilities and structured the banners in inner mongolia to divide the mongols. The dzunghar mongols were nearly wiped out by the Qing.

I'm aware of this, but this still doesn't change the fact that a key theme of Qing rule was: don't trust the Chinese.

Like I mentioned earlier with all the examples that I presented, this theme is clearly evident in the way that the Manchus ruled China.

And this is why when the Chinese governed themselves, we have the very successful Ming Dynasty. On the other hand, when we have the Manchus governing the Chinese, we have 300 years of stagnation. How can you not see the importance of this?
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Old January 5th, 2013, 12:06 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deke View Post
The only thing this proves is that the beiyang's army logistics was crap, because they had tons of mausers and modern rifles left behind in dumps in korea and tons of krupp artillery and rifles in arsenrals all over china. The jiangnan arsenal produced tons of breech loading artillery and rifles, and officials failed to coordinate supplies.

Li Hung-Chang and China's Early Modernization - Samuel C. Chu - Google Books

Chinese officials also deliberately paraded soldiers in public with matchlocks, bows and spears, while in private drills they took modern rifles out of the arsenal to train with.

The Overland Monthly - Google Books

During the boxer rebellion, the allies had no idea that agents from western countries had been selling tons of repeating rifles to China.

Some Did It for Civilisation; Some Did It for Their Country: A Revised View ... - Jane E. Elliott - Google Books

The beiyang army left behind hundreds of mauser magazine rifles, breechloading artillery and field guns during the sino japanese war.

The Sino-Japanese War of 1894-1895: Perceptions, Power, and Primacy - S. C. M. Paine - Google Books


There was no Beiyang army during the Sino-Japanese war. The most modern equipped army was the Huai amy, which did indeed have German Mausers, but were not as well drilled as the later New armies. The size of the Huai army was no larger than 30,000 and was considerably smaller than the Japanese army of the period, standing at 75,000. The huai army did not do bad, but when they were defeated, resistance quickly collapsed because the rest of the Qing armies were still the outdated Green standard and Bannerman of the previous century.

The New army, later known as the Beiyang army, was only created as a result of the defeat in the Sino-Japanese war. These soldiers are fully modern in both equipment and drilling and grew to a size of close to 300,000 by the end of the Qing.
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Old January 5th, 2013, 04:46 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by heavenlykaghan View Post
There was no Beiyang army during the Sino-Japanese war. The most modern equipped army was the Huai amy, which did indeed have German Mausers, but were not as well drilled as the later New armies. The size of the Huai army was no larger than 30,000 and was considerably smaller than the Japanese army of the period, standing at 75,000. The huai army did not do bad, but when they were defeated, resistance quickly collapsed because the rest of the Qing armies were still the outdated Green standard and Bannerman of the previous century.

The New army, later known as the Beiyang army, was only created as a result of the defeat in the Sino-Japanese war. These soldiers are fully modern in both equipment and drilling and grew to a size of close to 300,000 by the end of the Qing.
I think the Beiyang Army was created earlier than that. During the Sino-Japanese War, it was under the control of Li Hongzhang and was the best regional army China fielded at the time. Yuan Shikai took over in 1901 and greatly expanded it.
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Old January 5th, 2013, 04:51 PM   #160

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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavenlykaghan View Post
There was no Beiyang army during the Sino-Japanese war. The most modern equipped army was the Huai amy, which did indeed have German Mausers, but were not as well drilled as the later New armies. The size of the Huai army was no larger than 30,000 and was considerably smaller than the Japanese army of the period, standing at 75,000. The huai army did not do bad, but when they were defeated, resistance quickly collapsed because the rest of the Qing armies were still the outdated Green standard and Bannerman of the previous century.

The New army, later known as the Beiyang army, was only created as a result of the defeat in the Sino-Japanese war. These soldiers are fully modern in both equipment and drilling and grew to a size of close to 300,000 by the end of the Qing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mingming View Post
I think the Beiyang Army was created earlier than that. During the Sino-Japanese War, it was under the control of Li Hongzhang and was the best regional army China fielded at the time. Yuan Shikai took over in 1901 and greatly expanded it.
I always thought the Beiyang Army was the Huai and Anhui armies combined. Could be wrong about that though.
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