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Old October 13th, 2016, 02:26 PM   #1

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Question Aryan invasion theory - Pro and contra


In this thread, I wish to ask what the main arguments are for and against the theory that Aryans with r1a dna who spoke an indoeuropean language like sanskrit were a central key part of Harappan culture in 2600 bc. I encourage you to list several main reason for your side of the argument.

I can go first.
I believe that at some point aryans came to India and not aryans coming from India to Russia because of modern dna tests showing that Russians have R1a DNA in a major amount but not j, r2, or L dna. Pakistanis though have r2, j, l dna in major amounts. L and r2 dna is special to india. If aryans were a migration out of india, we would expect them to carry l, j, and r2 dna with them to russia.

Still that leaves open the question of whether aryans migrated to the Indus valley, before or after 2600 bc. I don't have a major opinion. Old mittani hurrian language was not indoeuropean, but about 1500 bc they talk about gods like Mitra and indra, so we can guess that about 1500 bc waves of indoeuropean started to move in as conquerors into Iraq and india. But it's just a guess.

Or we can say that the disappearance of Harappan sites was so massive that drying up of saraswati would not do all that, but some other factor of culture change was needed, like the foreign r1a people, who we know came in at least sometime and became the rulers of a society that has mostly non r1a dna.

On the other hand, phallus symbols were found in france, so someone can see there a connection to Shiva lingas, and suppose that french indoeuropeans in 2500 bc shared culture with harappa.

So there are lots of arguments made all over the place.
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Old October 13th, 2016, 09:17 PM   #2

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I'm pretty sure talks about Genetics aren't allowed on this website...
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Old October 13th, 2016, 09:27 PM   #3

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pessimist Crow View Post
I'm pretty sure talks about Genetics aren't allowed on this website...
Well, this is not a racial supremacy debate if that's what you mean. No one here is arguing that the Indians today are not descendants of the impressive Indus civilization.
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Old October 13th, 2016, 11:15 PM   #4

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Facts with distortion and editing and History


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Well, this is not a racial supremacy debate if that's what you mean. No one here is arguing that the Indians today are not descendants of the impressive Indus civilization.
You are in a Wrong Forum---- He is absolutely right for some Reason Genetics and Truth are not allowed to Discuss on this site--Only So called "History" and Myths written with so called "Facts" are allowed !! Including "Secret War Crimes of certain countries "

For your Information Genetic Analysis of the Skeleton Found in The Harapan site had been fully analysed twice --The First was in India Many years ago and the final results was published in a Short and Vague statement The Second sample Was send for further sophisticated analysis for a Foreign country in Asia and Still Awaiting the results

Have you seen the Film "The Immortals of Meluchha
Civilisation ?
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Old October 14th, 2016, 12:56 AM   #5

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You are in a Wrong Forum---- He is absolutely right for some Reason Genetics and Truth are not allowed to Discuss on this site--Only So called "History" and Myths written with so called "Facts" are allowed !! Including "Secret War Crimes of certain countries "
Genetics are not allowed because of the Nationalistic banter that entails afterwards. If the Mods allowed the discussion of Genetics into the mix, the end result would be another "glorious" website like Korean sentry.
Of course, some what reasonable or academically factual analysis conjected by people like Rakovsky may be affected; but it's far better than swimming in a conjugated river of Ethnocentrists all day.

As far as myth are concerned, you can still use them as cultural or political evidence of (insert state) linkage to the modern nation.

Last edited by Pessimist Crow; October 14th, 2016 at 01:03 AM.
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Old October 14th, 2016, 07:20 AM   #6

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Well, this is not a racial supremacy debate if that's what you mean. No one here is arguing that the Indians today are not descendants of the impressive Indus civilization.

Unfortunately all Genetics and DNA analysis regarding ethnicity is not allowed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pessimist Crow View Post
Of course, some what reasonable or academically factual analysis conjected by people like Rakovsky may be affected; but it's far better than swimming in a conjugated river of Ethnocentrists all day.

As far as myth are concerned, you can still use them as cultural or political evidence of (insert state) linkage to the modern nation.
Correct.
You will have to confine your discussion to analysis of linguistics, archeology etc.
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Old October 14th, 2016, 08:24 AM   #7

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Quote:
Originally Posted by NIROSHAN View Post
You are in a Wrong Forum---- He is absolutely right for some Reason Genetics and Truth are not allowed to Discuss on this site--Only So called "History" and Myths written with so called "Facts" are allowed !! Including "Secret War Crimes of certain countries "

For your Information Genetic Analysis of the Skeleton Found in The Harapan site had been fully analysed twice --The First was in India Many years ago and the final results was published in a Short and Vague statement The Second sample Was send for further sophisticated analysis for a Foreign country in Asia and Still Awaiting the results

Have you seen the Film "The Immortals of Meluchha
Civilisation ?
Dear Niroshan,
Ok,
It sounds like we can discuss the question of whether indoeuropeans, especially aryans, arrived before 2500 bc in the indus valley, but we can't specifically discuss genetics, like whether, as it's generally agreed, r1a is a indoeuropean haplogroup or whether the absence of L and R2 haplogroup in Russia means that major waves of Indians did not come to western Russia. I won't bring that genetic question up again then as an argument.

(Can you please point me, by pm if you wish, to the study you mentioned, because I looked in depth for that kind of thing, but never found such a study identifying a harappan skeleton's haplogroup anywhere, only claims that it hasn't been done and only studies from like before wwii about guessing the "types" of skeletons they found, eg. "Mongoloid", not actually running a real chemical dna test to determine haplogroups, which is what is needed.)

As I understand it, Immortals of Meluccha is an audiobook, not a movie.

Peace.

Last edited by rakovsky; October 14th, 2016 at 08:35 AM.
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Old October 14th, 2016, 09:29 AM   #8

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rakovsky View Post
Dear Niroshan,
Ok,
It sounds like we can discuss the question of whether indoeuropeans, especially aryans, arrived before 2500 bc in the indus valley, but we can't specifically discuss genetics, like whether, as it's generally agreed, r1a is a indoeuropean haplogroup or whether the absence of L and R2 haplogroup in Russia....
.
You're skirting the line there, be careful.

Do you have any archeological evidence that you can point to that either supports or refutes the Aryan migration theory OR the "Out of India" theory?
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Old October 14th, 2016, 09:40 AM   #9

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Genetic admixture


Quote:
Originally Posted by rakovsky View Post
dear niroshan,
ok,
it sounds like we can discuss the question of whether indoeuropeans, especially aryans, arrived before 2500 bc in the indus valley, but we can't specifically discuss genetics, like whether, as it's generally agreed, r1a is a indoeuropean haplogroup or whether the absence of l and r2 haplogroup in russia means that major waves of indians did not come to western russia. I won't bring that genetic question up again then as an argument.

(can you please point me, by pm if you wish, to the study you mentioned, because i looked in depth for that kind of thing, but never found such a study identifying a harappan skeleton's haplogroup anywhere, only claims that it hasn't been done and only studies from like before wwii about guessing the "types" of skeletons they found, eg. "mongoloid", not actually running a real chemical dna test to determine haplogroups, which is what is needed.)

as i understand it, immortals of meluccha is an audiobook, not a movie.

Peace.
i just sent you by pm some information about the results of genetic admixture from a limited sample--try more within the next few days if i find them!
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Old October 14th, 2016, 11:18 AM   #10

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@rakovsky :- when it comes to the study of Neolithic and later Bronze/Copper/Iron age cultures genetics doesn't make much sense. I hope you are interested in the language spoken by Indus Valley people if they speak Indo-Aryan or Dravidian language ? And language shift can happen very easily without changing the genes of the people. We have numerous examples throughout the history.

And regarding these view-points that Harappans were Vedic people, they never came from outside etc nobody gives much importance to these non-acadenic claims, however you can read this paper by Michael Witzel that dealt with some non-academic assumptions in detail: http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/EJVS-7-3.pdf
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