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Old March 22nd, 2010, 01:20 PM   #11

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Re: Dogs


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The dog's nose became one of our tools for survival. The dog would warn us of predators. This freed up space in our skull from being dedicated to smell. The new area could be used to expand our brain and intellectual complexity. One can therefore say," We are smart because we are slobs!"
Seriously ?
I honestly thought it was our development of trichromatic vision and our growing dependance on our eyesight that reduced our need of smell, as is the case with all other apes who have trichromatic vision.

I have to admit, I like the pet dog theory better, tho....
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 02:51 PM   #12

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Re: Dogs


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Dogs and humans evolved synergistically, in other words each contributed to the other's evolution. Humans were ( and are) slobs. Our primitive ancestors left bones and scraps around camp. Wolves came to eat the scraps. We killed the mean ones and after a long time of this type of selection the wolves visiting our camp became more and more mellow and eventually became dogs. And those dogs became pets. The dog's nose became one of our tools for survival. The dog would warn us of predators. This freed up space in our skull from being dedicated to smell. The new area could be used to expand our brain and intellectual complexity. One can therefore say,

I think there is truth there.

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" We are smart because we are slobs!"
Fits my lifestyle and self image!
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 03:06 PM   #13
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Re: Dogs


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Originally Posted by wittgenstein View Post
Dogs and humans evolved synergistically, in other words each contributed to the other's evolution. Humans were ( and are) slobs. Our primitive ancestors left bones and scraps around camp. Wolves came to eat the scraps. We killed the mean ones and after a long time of this type of selection the wolves visiting our camp became more and more mellow and eventually became dogs. And those dogs became pets. The dog's nose became one of our tools for survival. The dog would warn us of predators. This freed up space in our skull from being dedicated to smell. The new area could be used to expand our brain and intellectual complexity. One can therefore say," We are smart because we are slobs!"
This is fascinating how did we know which feral creature was naughty and which one was nice.

I agree there is a symbiotic relationship between humans and certain animals. Dogs being one of them. But it it a stretch to say that a dogs nose was used instead of a human's nose . Following that theory we would have no use for our sense of smell and we would now need Smell service dogs or smelly dogs.

Can you cite any authority on this because I have two chihuahuas here that have not been doing my smelling for me and I want to read them the riot act.

Actually I would like to read more about this if you could refer me I would appreciate it....
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 03:35 PM   #14

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Re: Dogs


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Actually I would like to read more about this if you could refer me I would appreciate it....

I am reading the article Wikipedia has on dogs and will quote parts related to early dog-human interactions.

Quote:
Wolves, and their dog descendants, would have derived significant benefits from living in human camps—more safety, more reliable food, lesser caloric needs, and more chance to breed. They would have benefited from humans’ upright gait that gives them larger range over which to see potential predators and prey, as well as color vision that, at least by day, gives humans better visual discrimination. Camp dogs would also have benefited from human tool use, as in bringing down larger prey and controlling fire for a range of purposes.
Humans would also have derived enormous benefit from the dogs associated with their camps. For instance, dogs would have improved sanitation by cleaning up human waste and food scraps. Dogs may have provided warmth, as referred to in the Australian Aboriginal expression “three dog night” and they would have alerted the camp to the presence of predators or strangers, using their acute hearing to provide an early warning. Anthropologists believe the most significant benefit would have been the use of dogs' sensitive sense of smell to assist with the hunt. The relationship between the presence of a dog and success in the hunt is often mentioned as a primary reason for the domestication of the wolf, and a 2004 study of hunter groups with and without a dog gives quantitative support to the hypothesis that the benefits of cooperative hunting was an important factor in wolf domestication.

The cohabitation of dogs and humans would have greatly improved the chances of survival for early human groups, and the domestication of dogs may have been one of the key forces that led to modern humans. Anthropologists Tacon and Pardoe argue that the effects of human-canine cohabitation on humans would have been profound, and hypothesize that some of the effects could have been moving from scavenging to large game hunting, the establishment and marking of territories, living in optimally sized social groups, hunting/working in synchronised teams, and negotiating partnership bonds. The human-dog partnership set both species on a new evolutionary course.
Another section states

Quote:
“The most widespread form of interspecies bonding occurs between humans and dogs” and the keeping of dogs as companions, particularly by elites, has a long history.
I am reading P.A. Stolypin The Search for Stability in Late Imperial Russia by Abraham Asher and came across this in the discussion of Nicholas II

Quote:
He could be deeply moved by the loss of his favorite dog, Iman. "I must confess ," he wrote in his diary on October, 22, 1902, "the whole dayafter it happened I never stopped crying - I shall miss him dreadfully when i go for walks. He was such an intelligent, kind and loyal dog!'
Such comments makes Nicholas seem human enough, but Asher has little good to say for his fitness to rule Russia.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 03:44 PM   #15
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Re: Dogs


Thank you Cicero I appreciate your reference!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 05:13 PM   #16

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Re: Dogs


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We killed the mean ones and after a long time of this type of selection the wolves visiting our camp became more and more mellow and eventually became dogs.
I'm not for sure, but I think one would want to kill the mother wolf as soon as the pups were weened.
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 01:16 PM   #17

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Re: Dogs


Quote:
Seriously ?
I honestly thought it was our development of trichromatic vision and our growing dependance on our eyesight that reduced our need of smell, as is the case with all other apes who have trichromatic vision.
This makes more sense to me. Most of the significant human evolution occured over 200,000 years ago. Way too early for dogs to have an influence.

Though we have undoubtedly altered theirs.
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 01:58 PM   #18

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Re: Dogs


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This makes more sense to me. Most of the significant human evolution occured over 200,000 years ago. Way too early for dogs to have an influence.

Though we have undoubtedly altered theirs.
Me too.
Humans, apes and monkeys which have developed trichromatic vision seem to have suffered a deteriortion in their sense of smell. Yet, new world monkeys which have not developed trichromatic vision have retained their sense of smell, with the exception of the howler monkey, the only new world monkey to have developed trichromatic vision. A coincidense, perhaps ?
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 02:02 PM   #19

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Re: Dogs


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Me too.
Humans, apes and monkeys which have developed trichromatic vision seem to have suffered a deteriortion in their sense of smell. Yet, new world monkeys which have not developed trichromatic vision have retained their sense of smell, with the exception of the howler monkey, the only new world monkey to have developed trichromatic vision. A coincidense, perhaps ?
Yeah, that's interesting.
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 08:27 PM   #20

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Re: Dogs


Ohhh my. This is one of my favorite topics of all time....woo hoo!!!!

I found these articles interesting, and I'm sure a few others will too....:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27240370

http://www.dangerousminds.net/index....e_middle_east/

http://www.ioe.ucla.edu/news/article.asp?parentid=2213

The only thing I am having trouble understanding about the recent studies performed by the California scientists is that they claim the remains from the middle east date back roughly 12 000 years ago, yet they go on to say...

"earliest dog remains have been found in the Middle East, dating from 12,000 years ago. The only earlier doglike remains occur in Belgium, at a site 31,000 years old, and in western Russia from 15,000 years ago."

Ok so after reading that, I'm thinking Belgium here....????
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