Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > Asian History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Asian History Asian History Forum - China, Japan, Korea, India, Australia, New Zealand, and the Asia-Pacific Region


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old December 13th, 2016, 04:29 PM   #31

mnsr's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Feb 2014
From: Asia
Posts: 1,376

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aatreya
1. Arrowheads, mace heads, spears, axe heads, pellets - are these examples of a "no warrior" society? What is the earliest evidence of a warrior culture in India?

2. Ahir may be the same as the Abhiras mentioned in the Puranas.
1. Obviously humans were making tools from Old Stone Age. Till date we cannot find any proof for an army from IVC. Hope you heard the story of Dasharajanya, ten armies fighting with each other !

2. Yes. but their social status is below the Thakurs in the region. Well they can very well be the mixture of two cultures ! Aryo-Harappans
mnsr is offline  
Remove Ads
Old December 13th, 2016, 05:34 PM   #32

Aupmanyav's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Jun 2014
From: New Delhi, India
Posts: 1,890

Quote:
Originally Posted by NIROSHAN View Post
Thanks Aupmanyav ! .. (Markandey Katju)
Excellent. Markandeya Katju as a historian. Markandeya Katju, a person from my community, is presently considered as a big joke in India. But tell us, what exactly you wanted to say with all the quotes in that post? The first humans who came to India along the sea-coast from Africa 70,000 years ago were very few. The population at that time was very small. Then, there have been periods in human history when the population went down drastically.

"A late human population bottleneck is postulated by some scholars at approximately 70,000 years ago, during the Toba catastrophe, when the Homo sapiens population may have dropped to as low as between 1,000 and 10,000 individuals."

Till 3,000 BC the total human population of the world was not more than 4 million people (if we go by Wikipedia). "The initial population "upswing" began around 5000 BC." Kindly go through https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_...tion_estimates

Click the image to open in full size.

Some of these people may still be in forests, others would have integrated into the larger number of people who migrated to India. People talk of an earlier Indo-European migration some 40,000 years ago and say that these people were Dravidians.

So forget about your theory that there are 100 million people in India from the older stock who are oppressed by brahmins. This is the missionary Christian argument and we see it all the time in media when they pose to be the saviors of aboriginal people of India. Let me pose you the question - how many aboriginal people the Christians have saved (or killed) in the world?

Last edited by Aupmanyav; December 13th, 2016 at 05:41 PM.
Aupmanyav is online now  
Old December 13th, 2016, 06:20 PM   #33
Historian
 
Joined: Dec 2014
From: USA
Posts: 2,074

Quote:
Originally Posted by mnsr View Post
1. Obviously humans were making tools from Old Stone Age. Till date we cannot find any proof for an army from IVC. Hope you heard the story of Dasharajanya, ten armies fighting with each other !

2. Yes. but their social status is below the Thakurs in the region. Well they can very well be the mixture of two cultures ! Aryo-Harappans
What is the earliest evidence of an army in India? (I mean archaeological evidence).
Aatreya is offline  
Old December 13th, 2016, 07:08 PM   #34

mnsr's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Feb 2014
From: Asia
Posts: 1,376

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aatreya View Post
What is the earliest evidence of an army in India? (I mean archaeological evidence).
I consider swords and horses (combination of both) from Late Harappan times as the beginning.
mnsr is offline  
Old December 13th, 2016, 07:33 PM   #35
Historian
 
Joined: Dec 2014
From: USA
Posts: 2,074

Quote:
Originally Posted by mnsr View Post
I consider swords and horses (combination of both) from Late Harappan times as the beginning.
Horses have been found from third millenium BCE in India. Yes, swords came in later. But why should warrior culture be associated with swords and not bows and arrows? Rudra has bow and arrow, Ramayana is full of bows and arrows, and Mahabharata's Arjuna is about bow and arrow. So, why this sudden fixation on swords?

By the way, where have they excavated both horse and sword together in India, and what is the find dated to?
Aatreya is offline  
Old December 13th, 2016, 09:32 PM   #36

Aupmanyav's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Jun 2014
From: New Delhi, India
Posts: 1,890

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aatreya View Post
What is the earliest evidence of an army in India? (I mean archaeological evidence).
Do you remember, the attacking armies were supposed to have been washed away in the floods of River Ravi.

नि गव्यवो.अनवो द्रुह्यवश्च षष्टिः शता सुषुपुः षट सहस्रा l
षष्टिर्वीरासो अधि षड दुवोयु विश्वेदिन्द्रस्य वीर्या कृतानि ll

ni ghavyavo.anavo druhyavaśca ṣaṣṭiḥ śatā suṣupuḥ ṣaṭa sahasrā l
ṣaṣṭirvīrāso adhi ṣaḍa duvoyu viśvedindrasya vīryā kṛtāni ll
The Anavas and Druhyus, seeking booty, have slept, the sixty hundred, yea, six thousand,
And six-and-sixty heroes. For the pious were all these mighty exploits done by Indra. RV 7.18.14

The RigVedic armies of the ten (or more) kings attacking Sudas were not as large as the puranic armies which numbered in 'akshohinis'. The Anavas and Druhyus, probably the main contenders and numbering 6,666 men; and, of course, there were 21 men from two Vaikarna tribes . It is possible that some of them may have surrendered or run away back to their territories. So, not much archaeological evidence. If their arms were ever found later, people would have melted and used the metal again. We Indians, do not believe in wasting things.

Then, of course, Lord Rama's armies. We still have the temple where Lord Rama worshiped Lord Shiva before crossing over to Ravana's Lanka and the stonesbrige built by the Vanara army (though the stones are now covered by sand). Don't we?

Click the image to open in full size.

Last edited by Aupmanyav; December 13th, 2016 at 09:47 PM.
Aupmanyav is online now  
Old December 14th, 2016, 02:12 AM   #37

NIROSHAN's Avatar
Lecturer
 
Joined: Sep 2015
From: UK/SRILANKA
Posts: 259

[QUOTE=Aupmanyav;2663227]Excellent. Markandeya Katju as a historian. Markandeya Katju, a person from my community, is presently considered as a big joke in India. But tell us, what exactly you wanted to say with all the quotes in that post?

SC/ST ACT,

The prosecution case is that the victim Ms.Nandabai who belongs to the Bhil community was residing with her father, handicapped brother, and lunatic sister. She had illicit relations with Mr. Vikram and had given birth to his daughter and was also pregnant through him for a second time. Vikram belongs to a Higher Caste and his marriage was being arranged by his family with a woman of his own caste.
In.1994 when the victim Ms Nandabai was at her house-- The four accused went to her house and asked why she had " illicit sexual relationship" with Vikram and started beating her with Fists and Kicks. At that time the accused Kailas and Balu held her hands while accused Subabai @ Subhadra removed her Sari. The accused Subhash then Removed her Petticoat and accused Subabai Tore the blouse and Brassiere of the victim .

Thereafter the accused Subabai and Balu Paraded the Victim Nandabai naked on the road of the village and at that time the four accused herein were Beating and abusing the victim Nandabai.
Many Indians are not aware of this case And the ill treatment meted out to this Bhil women --[Not Gondi--I was wrong] on the grounds of tribal woman

People are surprised that the conviction of the accused under the Scheduled Cases and Scheduled Tribes (Prevention of Atrocities) Act, 1989 was set aside on hyper technical grounds that the Caste Certificate was not produced and investigation by a Police Officer of the rank of Deputy Superintendent of Police was not done. These appear to be only technicalities and hardly a ground for acquittal, but since no appeal has been filed against that part of the High Court judgment ............
There was a big out- cry---If my Memory serves right the African Union countries put India against Apartheid in their agenda to bring it in UN -
But at the last moment It was Withdrawn -The rumours were that India Paid Lot bribes to the Powers that be in the AU countries through their Embassy
However I guess in ? 2007 India accepted the Adi-vasis were the Indegenous people of India in UN which gives them some special legal status and additional protection by the International bodies.---Hence the Historical Verdict for the by the Apex court ---I was told this while I was working in UN

Although I am not a Historian - Nor ever Visited India except as a transit passenger through Bombay and Chennai I started reading about "secret documents" about Indian history only since I joined Historium last year --
I accept the contents of the verdict of the apex court views on the racial and ethnic history of India its Entirety --Although I am bit confused Now as the contents were at variance from I thought---I guess it was due to over laying of languages and cultures over seral million years-Eg-I was confident Gond tribes belong to Central Dravidian Language group --but it appears they were austric ethnic but speaking Dravidian dialect--I am sure they speak Hindi Now!
I can easily understand why-- Srilanka was not very exposed to several migrations/Invasion---In Shivasim--Lord Siva is always associated with Shathi [male /female energies]---Some practise what is known in India Kashmir Shivasim ---only difference was Siva and Yoga[shakthi] other is Siva and Tantra [shakthi]--The concept of Tri-murthy never heard of --Worse still no one knows what these Vedas are
are all about but they know Indian Epics--But Not Buddhists---They Buddhism is very Basic without any tantric elements !

I initially wanted to connect as many as much as Tribal People with IVC with my own research--But Now decided to postpone it -until I gain total clarity in the subject as I don't know accurate picture in the ground!
With Regard to "Ideology of Brahmanism"in India I have a clear Perspective -Which involves Ruling Elites of the Society Priests and Warrior clans --That was a well known and very old "Model of Social control" depending on the concrete social conditions and Geography where "State and Religion" [Not Spirituality] involved from time immemorial of human History!
That is why almost all the Secret Societies began with the good intention from Egypt--Only Lately they were Misused and Abused against Eugenics of Humanity with wars to make Money !!
But this Archaeology of IVC -Especially Dwaraka ,Poompuhar, underwater Exploration and Harappan seals are still puzzling me---But Truth will be out one Day---It is only matter of time!!---It is obvious ASI is Pussy Footing on this matter for some political reasons!!
NIROSHAN is offline  
Old December 14th, 2016, 03:34 AM   #38
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Dec 2015
From: Gujarat, Western India
Posts: 559

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aupmanyav View Post
Excellent. Markandeya Katju as a historian. Markandeya Katju, a person from my community, is presently considered as a big joke in India. But tell us, what exactly you wanted to say with all the quotes in that post? The first humans who came to India along the sea-coast from Africa 70,000 years ago were very few. The population at that time was very small. Then, there have been periods in human history when the population went down drastically.

"A late human population bottleneck is postulated by some scholars at approximately 70,000 years ago, during the Toba catastrophe, when the Homo sapiens population may have dropped to as low as between 1,000 and 10,000 individuals."

Till 3,000 BC the total human population of the world was not more than 4 million people (if we go by Wikipedia). "The initial population "upswing" began around 5000 BC." Kindly go through https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_...tion_estimates

Click the image to open in full size.

Some of these people may still be in forests, others would have integrated into the larger number of people who migrated to India. People talk of an earlier Indo-European migration some 40,000 years ago and say that these people were Dravidians.

So forget about your theory that there are 100 million people in India from the older stock who are oppressed by brahmins. This is the missionary Christian argument and we see it all the time in media when they pose to be the saviors of aboriginal people of India. Let me pose you the question - how many aboriginal people the Christians have saved (or killed) in the world?

What oppressed ? Aaivais and Australoids were jungle dealers without any civilization. It was us who came, conquered those sub humans , cleaned jungle and created civilization.

We conquered it and we colonised it. It's our land. India was just like sub Saharan under those Australoid just like australia before European colonization

100% of all Indian achievements are made by brahmins and kashtriyas and other vedic and IVC west asian racial group. We were civilization bringers to tribals.
Aham Brahmasmi is offline  
Old December 14th, 2016, 04:24 AM   #39

Aupmanyav's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Jun 2014
From: New Delhi, India
Posts: 1,890

Quote:
Originally Posted by NIROSHAN View Post
If my Memory serves right the African Union countries put India against Apartheid in their agenda to bring it in UN -
"secret documents” .. I am sure they speak Hindi Now!
But Now decided to postpone it - until I gain total clarity in the subject as I don't know accurate picture in the ground!
With Regard to "Ideology of Brahmanism"in India I have a clear Perspective - Which involves Ruling Elites of the Society Priests and Warrior clans.
But this Archaeology of IVC - Especially Dwaraka ,Poompuhar, underwater Exploration and Harappan seals are still puzzling me .. It is obvious ASI is Pussy Footing on this matter for some political reasons!!
I am not surprised. These things happen. The poor women are sometimes lured by money. Illicit love does not bring any happiness. If the African Union countries made India into a country where people are discriminated on basis of these things, then they were wrong. They did not look at the history and effort of Independent India and we generally worry too hoots about views and actions. And since we do not care, there is no question of India paying any bribe. Yes, we have successively enlarged the facilities given to SC/ST and made the laws against discrimination stronger. Ah, UN! As if UN counts for anything.

Tribal or non-tribal, we are all citizens of India and governed by the Constitution of India, whatever it says. India has more safeguards for tribal people than most other countries. I am also an indigenous person of India. I have not come from any other country and taken a citizenship of India.

“Secret documents”? Do you mean the Church documents – the Joshua project? No, it is not necessary for tribal people to speak Hindi. Bodo, Manipuri and Santali are among the official languages of India (we have 22 in all in that category). In Jharkhand, though Hindi is the official language the following languages have the status of second language: Bengali, Oriya, Santhali, Ho, Kurukh, Mundari, Kharia, Nagpuri, Panchpargania, Khortha and Kurmali.

You are doing the right thing. It is not beneficial to dabble in things that one does not understand or has no knowledge of. Perhaps you will think of visiting India.

There is no pussy-footing by ASI. The fact is that the results of the research are not spectacular. No Minoan palace has been found either in Dwarika or in Poompuhar. Of course, ASI has limited funds and has better sites elsewhere to check upon, particularly the IVC sites, which are more numerous in India than in Pakistan. Actually IMHO, the IVC should be termed as Saraswati River civilization.

That is what you think. At the moment OBC (27%) and SC/ST (23%) make 50% or more of all elected persons. This percentage is maintained right from the village bodies to the National Parliament. The same is reflected in the Union and State cabinets. Then there are 14% Muslims, Sikhs, Christians. Buddhists, Jains, Zoroastrians and Jews makes even a smaller percentage.

A democracy with universal franchise (one person, one vote) requires a very fine balance. All political parties have to maintain this sort of percentage when they select their candidates. If they do not do this, they cannot succeed in elections. The higher castes do not dominate the rulers now. Our Prime Minister, Narendra Modi is from the OBC (Other Backward Classes). Many of the States have Chief Ministers who do not belong to the higher castes. And you are blaming brahmins who constitute just 4% of the Indian population. Niroshan, we are not living in 7th. Century, it is the 21st. Times have changed. You have been reading too much of the missionary propaganda. You hardly have any idea about India.

Last edited by Aupmanyav; December 14th, 2016 at 05:25 AM.
Aupmanyav is online now  
Old December 14th, 2016, 05:29 AM   #40

Aupmanyav's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Jun 2014
From: New Delhi, India
Posts: 1,890

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aham Brahmasmi View Post
What oppressed ? Adivasis and Australoids were jungle dealers without any civilization. It was us who came, conquered those sub humans, cleaned jungle and created civilization.
I do not know. I have not got my DNA checked. I am not sure how much of adivasi blood flows in my veins. Do you know for sure about your DNA? Sometimes the DNA reports spring up great surprises.
Aupmanyav is online now  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > Asian History

Tags
arachaeology, arachal, distorted, hide, plot



Search tags for this page
Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
History distorted for the purpose of justifying current and future wars Black Dog Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology 227 November 14th, 2014 02:07 PM
How to hide the country from my profile details greatstreetwarrior New Users 10 January 25th, 2013 08:36 AM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.