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Old December 14th, 2016, 07:03 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Aupmanyav View Post
Do you remember, the attacking armies were supposed to have been washed away in the floods of River Ravi.

नि गव्यवो.अनवो द्रुह्यवश्च षष्टिः शता सुषुपुः षट सहस्रा l
षष्टिर्वीरासो अधि षड दुवोयु विश्वेदिन्द्रस्य वीर्या कृतानि ll
ni ghavyavo.anavo druhyavaśca ṣaṣṭiḥ śatā suṣupuḥ ṣaṭa sahasrā l
ṣaṣṭirvīrāso adhi ṣaḍa duvoyu viśvedindrasya vīryā kṛtāni ll
The Anavas and Druhyus, seeking booty, have slept, the sixty hundred, yea, six thousand,
And six-and-sixty heroes. For the pious were all these mighty exploits done by Indra. RV 7.18.14

The RigVedic armies of the ten (or more) kings attacking Sudas were not as large as the puranic armies which numbered in 'akshohinis'. The Anavas and Druhyus, probably the main contenders and numbering 6,666 men; and, of course, there were 21 men from two Vaikarna tribes . It is possible that some of them may have surrendered or run away back to their territories. So, not much archaeological evidence. If their arms were ever found later, people would have melted and used the metal again. We Indians, do not believe in wasting things.

Then, of course, Lord Rama's armies. We still have the temple where Lord Rama worshiped Lord Shiva before crossing over to Ravana's Lanka and the stonesbrige built by the Vanara army (though the stones are now covered by sand). Don't we?

Click the image to open in full size.
OK Sir, I asked for archaeological evidence. Yes, I have read the stories. Thank you.
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Old December 14th, 2016, 12:14 PM   #42

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Originally Posted by Aatreya View Post
But why should warrior culture be associated with swords and not bows and arrows?

By the way, where have they excavated both horse and sword together in India, and what is the find dated to?
Even, we do not have any motif showing bows and arrows from IVC.

Strangely Harappans have shown no motif of horses and chariots and Vedas have no words regarding their trade journeys to Dilmun, Makan and Sumer. Any person with slight knowledge of IVC and Vedic culture can clearly see the disconnect here.

Well, as I said the genuine horse remains as well as swords comes from Late Harappan times. Many archaeologists have doubt regarding the authenticity of 2000 BC horse remains from a small Harappan site Surkotada.
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Old December 14th, 2016, 12:19 PM   #43

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Originally Posted by NIROSHAN
I was confident Gond tribes belong to Central Dravidian Language group --but it appears they were austric ethnic but speaking Dravidian dialect--I am sure they speak Hindi Now!
By Austric, do you mean Australoid Race ?

Because Austric is basically a linguistic term used for Austro-Asiatic and Austroneian people and languages. It has different meaning from Australoid race.

So, please be clear if you are using the 'race term' or the 'linguist term'.
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Old December 14th, 2016, 12:34 PM   #44
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Even, we do not have any motif showing bows and arrows from IVC.

Strangely Harappans have shown no motif of horses and chariots and Vedas have no words regarding their trade journeys to Dilmun, Makan and Sumer. Any person with slight knowledge of IVC and Vedic culture can clearly see the disconnect here.

Well, as I said the genuine horse remains as well as swords comes from Late Harappan times. Many archaeologists have doubt regarding the authenticity of 2000 BC horse remains from a small Harappan site Surkotada.
I will have to dig out, but yes the Harappans did have a picture of a guy with a short bow and arrow.

Dude, why would Vedas contain any trade relation with Dilmun, Makan and Sumer or any such place? In what context? Suppose I want to write a short poem on Narayana, would I write about my relative's company, it's trade relations, etc..? Seems very out of place and illogical.

Horse remains have been found from other places as well, let alone Surkotada, and have been found from earlier times as well (Ex.: Malva in Madhya Pradesh, Hallur in Karnataka, etc..). So, nope, no horses in India theory does not fly anymore. These AMT archaeologists will doubt anything that is contradictory to their theory, so what?

Not everyone would have been a trader in IVC. So traders going out to places does not have to be mentioned in Rig Veda. Even then, if some place or the other was mentioned, how would you be able to know if the place mentioned was Dilmun or Makan or any such place?

I asked you regarding the exact location where they found a horse and a sword, and you are generalizing it to "Late Harappan times". Can you be specific please?
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Old December 14th, 2016, 01:33 PM   #45

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I will be waiting for a Harappan guy with bow and arrows
Click the image to open in full size.

Well, different geographical locations and people are do mentioned in Vedas. Then why not Dilmun, Makan and Sumer. And hope you know there is a huge corpus of Vedic literature and a lot of information is mentioned there, not just the poems of Narayana. And if have identified other places mentioned in Vedas, what would be difficulty in identifying Dilmun or Makan, rather there would be less ambiguity in their mention because of their distinct geographical location.

Also I like to know where else they found the horse remains in IVC. And Harappan Civilization goes back to 3300 BC and if (let's assume) they found something first time from the date 2000 BC onwards that seems a object rather than a part of tradition. Rather I am more interested in the horse motifs like we get from other civilizations, hope I do not get this one.
Click the image to open in full size.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aatreya
So traders going out to places does not have to be mentioned in Rig Veda
Well, traders were very much the part of society. They are do mentioned. But because of teh Aryan culture Priests and Warriors are mainly dominating the discourse.

And regarding your last question, the location of Late Harappan culture is not general. It specifically means Sindh-Punjab-Haryana region during 1900-1300 BC. And again horses and swords became more prominent during Painted Grey Ware Culture. Now this is also a specific location means Uttar Pradesh-Bihar during 1200-600 BC.
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Old December 14th, 2016, 01:37 PM   #46

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Just like to clear the confusion regarding Austrics/Austro-Asiatics, This is how Austro-Asiatic people look like.

Click the image to open in full size.
Mamuni Soren, Santali

Click the image to open in full size.
Andrea Tariang, Khasi

Click the image to open in full size.
Eint Myet Che, Mon

Click the image to open in full size.
Pisith Pilika, Khmer

Click the image to open in full size.
Maggie Q, Vietnamese
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Old December 14th, 2016, 02:18 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by mnsr View Post
I will be waiting for a Harappan guy with bow and arrows
Click the image to open in full size.

Well, different geographical locations and people are do mentioned in Vedas. Then why not Dilmun, Makan and Sumer. And hope you know there is a huge corpus of Vedic literature and a lot of information is mentioned there, not just the poems of Narayana. And if have identified other places mentioned in Vedas, what would be difficulty in identifying Dilmun or Makan, rather there would be less ambiguity in their mention because of their distinct geographical location.

Also I like to know where else they found the horse remains in IVC. And Harappan Civilization goes back to 3300 BC and if (let's assume) they found something first time from the date 2000 BC onwards that seems a object rather than a part of tradition. Rather I am more interested in the horse motifs like we get from other civilizations, hope I do not get this one.
Click the image to open in full size.


Well, traders were very much the part of society. They are do mentioned. But because of teh Aryan culture Priests and Warriors are mainly dominating the discourse.

And regarding your last question, the location of Late Harappan culture is not general. It specifically means Sindh-Punjab-Haryana region during 1900-1300 BC. And again horses and swords became more prominent during Painted Grey Ware Culture. Now this is also a specific location means Uttar Pradesh-Bihar during 1200-600 BC.
Look at the below image:

Click the image to open in full size.

From the bottom left, second row clearly indicates a person with bow and arrow. Why would any civilization have this symbol if they did not use it? Arrow heads are definitely found in Harappan sites, and I suppose you know it.

Places and persons in Rig Veda are mentioned according to the context. There is no need to see an encyclopedia of sorts in Rig Veda. I never said traders were not part of Rig Vedic society, they were. But the point is, if someone is composing a hymn on Indra, why would he talk about the trading community's relation with another place, if it were not required. Seems very illogical to me

It seems you are very interested to seeing horse motifs from IVC. Did you ever check if there was a cow motif? Do you think Harappans had only bulls to deal with?

I will check and list the places where horse remains are found.
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Old December 14th, 2016, 02:36 PM   #48

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Thanks, but how we know he was a soldier but not some random hunter. Hope you understand the difference between vyadha and Kshatriya. I was expecting some solid proof.

Well, traders also need god. I am not sure how this is illogical if some traders is praying for his successful campaign to Dilmun or Sumer after crossing the mighty sea. Well, someone needs god more in this situation rather than in the case of stealing cows. Or as it seems Priests were totally ignoring the traders and their beliefs. This can't be expected from the priests of trade oriented society of IVC. The mighty cities (also not mentioned in Rig Veda) thrive on this mighty and risky trade.

People who understand the Harappan motifs are clear that Harappans give more importance to male animals. Your question would have been more logical if you have asked why stallions are are there but no mares. Hope I do not have to explain that cows are just the females of bulls !
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Old December 14th, 2016, 03:20 PM   #49
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Thanks, but how we know he was a soldier but not some random hunter. Hope you understand the difference between vyadha and Kshatriya. I was expecting some solid proof.

Well, traders also need god. I am not sure how this is illogical if some traders is praying for his successful campaign to Dilmun or Sumer after crossing the mighty sea. Well, someone needs god more in this situation rather than in the case of stealing cows. Or as it seems Priests were totally ignoring the traders and their beliefs. This can't be expected from the priests of trade oriented society of IVC. The mighty cities (also not mentioned in Rig Veda) thrive on this mighty and risky trade.

People who understand the Harappan motifs are clear that Harappans give more importance to male animals. Your question would have been more logical if you have asked why stallions are are there but no mares. Hope I do not have to explain that cows are just the females of bulls !
We do not have one single evidence for a chariot till Mauryan times or perhaps even later. But yet we have no trouble to accept the fact that The Vedic people until then did have chariots, and even fought wars on chariots! But we start questioning the absence of chariots, horses, swords, etc.. once we get to the Harappan period. See a pattern?

Yes, I do know the difference between a vyadha and a Kshatriya. You should know that the symbol that I posted "does not" tell you anything about whether he was a vyadha or Kshatriya. All it tells you is that the bow and arrow "were" used. Now, it does not preclude us to imagine that the bows and arrows were used for fighting with other people too. Can you do that? Unfortunately, some of the drawings from the Harappan period throw more questions at us than offer clues.

Yes, certainly traders needed Gods, and we had one of the Vaishya Sages in Rig Veda too (I forget his name, I will post it later). But that does not mean that the hymns start mentioning the places where the traders were headed to. I do not know how difficult it is to comprehend that. Let us say, I am a trader heading to another country, the hymns will only be prayers to the Lord to make my trade successful, and further, if travelling, the hymn will be like "let the travel be safe and yield us riches". I am doubtful if anybody would have a specific hymn like "Let the travel to XYZ be successful".

There are many hymns in Rig Veda that talk about the YajamAna praying for riches, without any necessity of mentioning the specific place where the trade is happening. Further, the dana stutis, and other riks that talk about Kings, do talk about some places, but that is incidental.

Some of the riks that talk about stealing cows are very symbolic. Perhaps you haven't given enough thought on those riks. See the Aryan invasion theory or contra thread where I have posted a few riks that have explicit mention of regional flora and fauna.

Again, having said that Harappans were Vedic does not mean they had to be Rig Vedic people. For all we know, it is possible that Rig Veda happened much earlier. It seems to me so far that is indeed the case.
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Old December 14th, 2016, 08:31 PM   #50

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OK Sir, I asked for archaeological evidence. Yes, I have read the stories. Thank you.
When archaeological proofs are not available, we have to go by literary proofs.
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